Effect of Level Difference on EXP - Work in Progress

[SirDurant]

This is more notes and an attempt to deduce the effects of level difference, skills, and other stuff on EXP gained (into a formula if at all possible) than an actual guide, but I'm putting it here because it might be helpful to someone. I'll be editing it A LOT if I'm working on it. Yes, it's pretty common knowledge in training guides that monsters of a lower level give an EXP penalty, I'm just trying to figure out how much of a penalty.

Test 1: Effect of Level Gap on EXP
This test is conducted without skills (I don't have any on my bunny other than Steel Punch at the moment, so skills will not be used in this test).

Levels of "Test Subjects" so far:
Lv1 Torobbie
Lv5 Tottoichi
Lv8 Little Cora
Lv11 Blue Penguin
Lv13 Bustshell
Lv15 Clione
Lv17 Thiefmon
Lv20 Real Golden Mole

Lv16 Bunny kills:
Clione: 8051-7797 = 254 EXP, -1 level compared to player.
Thiefmon: 8844-8051 = 793 EXP, +1 level compared to player.

According to others, EXP = Damage * 1.2, Wiki says Cliones have 590 HP, Thiefmon have 660.

590*1.2 = 708 EXP
660*1.2 = 792 EXP

So the Thiefmon had almost no change to EXP from the one-level difference (+0.13% if anything), while the Clione being one level down means it only gave (254/708) ~35.9% of the normal EXP, so the penalty is about 64% for a level gap of -1.

Let's try with a Bustshell, -3 level gap.

Bustshell: 9049-8844 = 205 EXP

Wiki puts Bustshells at 530 HP which should be 636 EXP. 205/636 is about 32.3%, which is about a 68% drop for a level gap of -3. There's SOME difference, but the biggest change is probably the -1 as opposed to +1.

Testing a 0 level difference, one level later...

Thiefmon: 1084-292 = 792.

No change in EXP. It's the huge dropoff at -1 that changes things...so when a guide says never to train on anything lower than your level, they mean it!

Testing a -6 (Lv17 Bunny vs. Blue Penguin)

Blue Penguin: 1245-1084 = 161.

450 HP*1.2 = 540 EXP (ironically, the EXP amount is also in the wiki...wierd). 161/540 ~29.8% or about a 70% drop. So the EXP % drop slows down eventually, but the huge 64% hit at -1 pretty much means this point doesn't matter much.

Little Cora: -9 level mod, 1354-1245 = 109/414 = 26.3%...
Tottoichi: -12 level mod, 2157-2091 = 66/300 = 22.0%...
Torobbie: -16 level mod, 3965-3943 = 22/120 = 18.3%...
Real Golden Mole: +3 level mod, 5738-4821 = 917/(765*1.2) = 917/918 ~99.9%...odd. We can assume that there is no EXP bonus for +1 to +3...is there EVER a bonus for killing something higher level? I doubt it.



Retesting With New Knowledge:

EDIT: Since I cannot run the Lv16 tests again, I will run them several times as a Lv17. I will not be retesting the + gaps, as there doesn't appear to be a bonus...

Cliones (Lv15, -2 gap, or about 88.2% of attacker's level in this case): 5738 at start, 5985, 6231, 6479, 6724, 6969, 7217, 7463, 7708, 7956, 8204.
Averaged out to 246.6 EXP each, ranges from 245-248. Not a huge amount of fluctuation per kill. 34.6 to 35% of normal EXP, so about a 65% penalty.
Bustshell Retest (Lv13, -4 gap, 76.5% of level): Start at 8204, 8406, 8608, 8810, 9010, 9211, 9414, 9617, 9818, 10022, 10222.
Averaged out to 201.8 EXP, ranged from 200-204. Still not much fluctuation. 31.4-32.0% EXP...
Blue Penguin Retest (Lv11, -6 gap, 64.7% of level): 10222 start, 10385, 10545, 10708, 10871, 11032, 11195, 11340, 11519, 11680, 11845.
Average of 162.3 EXP, range of 159-165.
Little Cora Retest (Lv8, 47.0%): Excuse me if I keep changing recording styles. 111, 109, 109, 109, 109, 109, etc...109 when I don't miss. 109/414 = 26.3%...
Tottoichi Retest (Lv5, 29.4%): 65 when I don't miss. I will judge the EXP ratio by the first kill without missing, since it's accurate and fast to do. 65/288 (Yes, I got the ratio wrong before...240*1.2 is 288, not 300, and not 330 as the wiki says) = 22.6%
Bad Fury Test (Lv4, 23.5%): 53/246 = 21.5%
Torobbie Retest (Lv1, 5.9%): 21/120 = 17.5%
Thiefmon Retest @ Lv18 (Lv17, 94.4%): 284/792 = 35.9%
Using muffinppt's Ice Bear data (Lv320 vs character's Lv321), 99.7% = 39.8%

There are two possible theories on how level would scale the EXP: By a raw level count (+/-), and by a ratio of levels (%). Still trying to figure out which is correct. I would reason it's by %, else Torikakae's statement three posts down about Ice Bears (-13) wouldn't be giving 40-50%, since by +/-, that would be about 19%. So I'll be recording by % now.

100% may fluctuate a little, appearantly, as I got 99.9% and 100.1% a few times...maybe because misses give like 1 EXP (at really early levels, you can notice the teeny bit of EXP you get if you miss). I will only list the % of the lowest end of the range, as that is the EXP without missing once (Yes, LV17 is still low enough that 1 EXP will mess up the data).

% Level Difference (monster's level divided by player's level) : EXP modifier
100.0% and up: 100.0%
99.7% : 39.8%
94.4% : 35.9%
88.2% : 34.6%
76.5% : 31.4%
64.7% : 29.4%
47.0% : 26.3%
29.4% : 22.6%
23.5% : 21.5%
5.9% : 17.5%

Things still to do with this experiment: Test a larger range of different %s.

Experiments to do: Skills, AoE, TM EXP, enemies that cast Cure.

[Esper]

I believe we already have a thread similar to this. Let me try to find it...

Edit: I lied. It either got lost when the past forum was closed or it's my imagination. .__.

[Moo]

Bad TJ.


Would it be possible for OP to include the monsters' level next to their name? Then I don't have to look up the wiki to see the level difference between the char and monster x.x Otherwise this looks to be very helpful... I knew there was a penalty too, but not how much or how the whole thing works. Hax stuff. +rep for usefulness.

[Torikakae]

You should test on the same monster similar times. The exp penalty tends to...fluctuate. Case in point: I still train in Ice Bears which are 13 or so levels below me. I get 50%~60% exp penalty, and it fluctuates within that range.

Also, if you want a more accurate reading try higher leveled/HP monsters~

For more into, try PMing redos. He tested this thing further that I did~

[Synkronized]

Originally Posted by Torikakae

You should test on the same monster similar times. The exp penalty tends to...fluctuate. Case in point: I still train in Ice Bears which are 13 or so levels below me. I get 50%~60% exp penalty, and it fluctuates within that range.

Also, if you want a more accurate reading try higher leveled/HP monsters~

For more into, try PMing redos. He tested this thing further that I did~

i didnt know it fluctuates...o.o;; i thought it was a 60% penatly all the time

lol@100.1%

[Chobby]

I think that if you OHKO monsters, you tend to get more exp? or maybe it was just a rumor.

[SirDurant]

Yeah, sorry if it's not too accurate at the moment, it's a work in progress, mostly...and yeah, I ought to put in the levels and all. I can't test on larger things like Ice Bears yet, mostly because the testing bunny isn't very high level (17).

I'll run tests again to check for accuracy.

Also, OHKOs are for saving pots, not for EXP bonuses. It just means you get all the EXP for that monster in one hit.

[Torikakae]

Originally Posted by Synkronized

i didnt know it fluctuates...o.o;; i thought it was a 60% penatly all the time

I did so too, until redos pointed it out for me (and a few tests of my own confirmed it) :P

[Dragon]

Pretty sure Noe had talked about EXP training before in his guide for Training, but yeah, the decrease is too huge. Mainly the reason why I don't understand lions 260+ train at Gold Beetles at Ice Bears when they get so much penalty.

[Torikakae]

Because, believe it or not, I get better exp in Ice Bears than I do in Tap4~

[SirDurant]

Ice Bears: Lv320, 14485 HP.
Blue Salamanders: Lv339, 14000 HP.
Reggae Orc: Lv351, 14815 HP.
Fire Golem: Lv359, 15090 HP.

There could be a few reasons you're getting more EXP...

1) Faster kill rate--Ice Bears have lower defences and resistances.
2) Tap4 is probably crowded as hell...
3) I would say you're under Lv320 so the levels over yours don't matter, but your previous posts state you're around 33x...
4) The HP difference isn't that big...

[Torikakae]

Close~ The main culprit is running around. It takes SOOOOO much time (approx. 75%+ of a training session) to move from one monster to the next (I don't use sprints. But I may start experimenting again when the perma sprints come out...hopefully). In Ice Bears, I just Chiserker/Sonic my way through happiness~

IIRC, I get 4-5% an hour soloing in Tap3 around 20 or so levels ago. I'm getting 7-9% in Ice Bears right now~

[SirDurant]

Yeah, that too...supposedly there's a place that always full to the brim with bats...makes great training for Chizerkers or tough AoE specialists (hello Earth/Wind sheep or Light dragon), doesn't it? I think the bats are a lesser version of Ice Bears in that case.

I'm not too knowledgeable on packed maps (ones where there's an enemy at roughly every two steps or so), so would you be willing to name some?

Things to test in packed maps once I actually get an AoE attack for once : AoE EXP modifier for additional enemies hit, general AoE sizes (for fun).

[Anchors]

Here's the old information pre-revo... or at least what I remember of it... No guarantees for accuracy because I've got no idea if anything's changed. :x

TM exp bonuses +20%, 40%, 60%, 80% for monsters 5-14, 15-24, 25-34, or 35+ levels above you, respectively
TM exp penalties -20%, 40%, 60%, 80% for monsters 5-14, 15-24, 25-34, or 35+ levels below you, respectively

Base exp = 1.2 × HP taken off of target for melee (IE overkill damage doesn't count towards exp), including attribute-boosted melee, rounded down
Base exp = 1.25 × HP taken off of target for any type of gunshot or skill EXCEPT blessings/dark barrier/other passive forms of damage, rounded down

There is no exp bonus or penalty for AoE. There was a sort of debate over whether mana storm gave you less exp vs single target spells, and no experiments that I saw or heard of confirmed any difference that couldn't be attributed to rounding or just exp display glitches.

TM exp is directly proportional to monster level (before the 20-80% bonuses/penalties for level differences) and the percentage of that TM exp you earn is directly proportional to what percentage of HP that monster has left when you tag it and kill it. Losing the tag and regaining it means you only get the TM exp proportional to HP left when you killed it - life taken off before you lost the tag doesn't count towards the TM exp.

There's no difference outside of rounding issues between multi-hit KOing a monster and OHKOing a monster when only direct forms of damage are involved. Passive forms of damage will count for TM exp, but I think there's a big penalty on base exp earned - not sure what the ratio is.

That's all I remember. Hope that helps.

<edit>Oh, yeah, about base exp for monsters lower level than your character... There was a formula for the penalty, but I cannot remember it. But since you've got the data up there, you should be able to determine one!

[prison]

Originally Posted by Shadow

I think that if you OHKO monsters, you tend to get more exp? or maybe it was just a rumor.

Yep. 1 Exp more. 8D Ex) if you kill a monster with Arrow Rush (7 arrows) it gives 1 exp less then if you used a skill like Dark Lance (1 hit)

[SirDurant]

Anchors, that was very helpful...and I would think it's true. I suppose all that's left is to reason a formula for base EXP, hm?

So far I'm thinking something like...if (target level / attacker level) < 1, Base EXP multiplier is 0.37 - (1 - (target level / attacker level) * 0.2). It's not completely exact, but it's a pretty good fit judging from the data so far...

[multippt]

Icebear exp penalty is about 40% (rough data: ~7.2k exp for nerfed exp [comfirmed], 18.1k for unnerfed [using extrapolated data]). Tested at lvl 320 and 321 on a wind mage (though data appears constant at lvl 330+ as well for nerfed exp). I'll gather more data if required.

However, this nerfed exp is also found to be likely 50% of the monster's hp (hp is tested on Icebears to be >14.4k but <14.5k [calculations suggests 14460]).

Skills are known to have a higher exp multiplier (1.25, which is about 125% of a monster's hp) than melee (1.2, which is 120% of a monster's hp). However, I have not comfirmed this statement yet.

In addition, unnerfed exp (exp without penalty) can be passed to a high level player through exp share.

I also found out that there is possibly an ohko bonus for exp. When you ohko a monster in a single hit (multi hit skills like Arrow Rush do not count), you will get 1 exp more than the base exp for 0% exp multiplier. However, this additional bonus increases significantly when there is an exp multiplier. I have not found how it scales accordingly as the bonus is not scaled proportionally to exp multiplier.

Interestingly, there is a possibility of a critical bonus. This bonus has only been observed when you have an exp multiplier. When you have no exp multiplier, crits and non-crits give the same exp.

There is no exp bonus for attacking multiple monsters at once for 0% exp multiplier. It is not known if this applies when you have an exp multiplier.

Some experiments were conducted with Pr1son, particularly the exp ohko bonus and the party exp share.

Some data on Icebears:
*Note: As most of the data was taking from months ago... I cannot remember what skills I have used, but most are ohko moves. May need to reexamine data again.

Spoiler!

Exp +0%
Lvl 320: 16152 (Data likely to be inaccurate. Could be 18152k according to data extrapolation. AR)
Lvl 321: 7231 (Radiant Strike), 7230 (AR)
Lvl 321: 21693 (3 ohko hits with Radiant Strike)
Exp +75%
Lvl 321: 12686

Exp +85%
Lvl 320: 33582

Exp +275%
Lvl 321: 19200

Exp +285%
Lvl 321: 20794

Exp +200%
Lvl 321: 21732 (crit), 21696 (no-crit) (Radiant Strike)

[Torikakae]

Originally Posted by Anchors

TM exp bonuses +20%, 40%, 60%, 80% for monsters 5-14, 15-24, 25-34, or 35+ levels above you, respectively
TM exp penalties -20%, 40%, 60%, 80% for monsters 5-14, 15-24, 25-34, or 35+ levels below you, respectively

This is actually interesting. I did notice that even when I'm training at monsters 10+ levels below me, my TM seems to go up twice as fast as my base exp. If someone can confirm this, then I guess that could solve another TO mystery: If suiciding is beneficial at what level gap.

[SirDurant]

Well, assuming those gaps and the formula...

10 levels below would give you 80% normal TM according to that, but (since you're Lv330 or so, right?) about 37% normal Base EXP. So yes, it seems like it's rising twice as fast because it is (at least according to those formulas).

multippt, thanks for that, I'll do some calcs and put the data in the table.