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01-22-2012   #9721 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernalGuy
Any idea what is Class completion? I imagine it like revamp of all current skills : some skills adjusted to be stronger, some fixed (I'm looking at you, Earth), some gets requirements changed, MP/TM costs altered etc... ) Do I imagine it right?
yes...at least that what I think it is...
 
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01-22-2012   #9722 (permalink)
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I swear to the gods if eTO does implement the bullshit that is the elemental nerf, I will shoot a e-yak.

It's probably just my opinion, but I find this insulting as a person who plays and loves mage characters, especially my main. Not to mention all the time and money I put in. I'll keep watch of what happens between now and then, but as of right now, I'm not pleased with what I'm seeing.
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01-22-2012   #9723 (permalink)
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I personally think all changes (including mage nerf) will be included in eTO, because that's something systemetic, unlike items or other additional options. Plus, this will allow people to spend more money on MS for elemental rings, so I don't see why the eTO developers wouldn't apply these changes.

New info: Buffalo's Lightening Sword has been nerfed. It now has a short casting delay (unknown exactly how many seconds) and may stun targeted enemies for 4 seconds max. The kTO GMs say it's in the patch notes, but I can't seem to find it....Will keep you guys updated.
 
01-22-2012   #9724 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parudy88
I personally think all changes (including mage nerf) will be included in eTO, because that's something systemetic, unlike items or other additional options. Plus, this will allow people to spend more money on MS for elemental rings, so I don't see why the eTO developers wouldn't apply these changes.
Yeah... $$$ and more $$$. Though IMO it's going to cause many mages to QUIT, not buy MyShop.

It's like they're saying "Those skills that were doing no where near the most damage in the game, we are making them weaker. And then giving other classes skills that ignore all of the magic type defense spells and then punish you for using them." And that applies not just to Light mages.

Buffs getting a more effective (and probably more powerful) version of Staff of Thunder didn't make me smile either.

I'm going to wait for any info regarding just how much the attribute affects the skills, and just how much weaker they are; e.g. Used to do, 20k, now it does __k. But yeah, for the most part I'm agreeing with Sakurah... so far I'm not impressed or pleased at all by this update.

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01-23-2012   #9725 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanYa4eVr
Buffs getting a more effective (and probably more powerful) version of Staff of Thunder didn't make me smile either.

uh, you did hear from the previous post that the Buffalo Lightning skill is going to get nerfed right? Also, I fail to see how a recovery skill should be added to the Gladiator side if it can't work in mid-combat. They already have the Berserk skill that weaken their HP for a berserking attack frenzy and more attack power. And here I thought they would make a skill that would support that or give them a support that allow Buffs to be near the mid of enemy territory with some protection. Just standing there to get some extra heal isn't really "power type" to me.

Well gratz buns, you got yourself an Aoe attack and some debuff negation. more powa to you...still waiting to see some better balancing materials out there.

Last edited by FoxFX; 01-23-2012 at 05:49 AM.
 
01-23-2012   #9726 (permalink)
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1. Tech Revamp sounds good. At least sth to do. lol

As asked before - is there a decent grinding spot in Tech Mine???

2. Those new skills look tempting. Especially power types and foxes get decent PVE and PVP skills. Lion and charm skills are rather pvp oriented imho.

Really look forward to Glad and Champ AOE :> (*pve-player*)

3. To be honest i love how magic skills are now dependent on Ele %. I never understood why buffalo skills get stronger by ELE (physical skills!!!) while sheep skills don't. Made no sense to me.
And when the overall damage decrease is about as much as the increase from the new skill, then it's fine.
Glad I already have a Light Attribute shield and an Inferno Cape for my Witch. For Electric % i will certainly get an Altiverse Staff. So no need for MS Accs for me :>

And that hybrids have a hard time getting % for all elements sounds fair since hybrids are not masters of their elements and need to find a middle way.
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01-23-2012   #9727 (permalink)
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If I understand it correct, element's on our chars won't be optional thing, but a MUST?? I mean, if my damage won't be lowered if I don't use element, but would increase, if I use it, I'm kinda OK with that. Otherwise, this is THE BIGGEST BS EVER!! We get forced to use elements? FU** YOU! I swear god, if this sh** will reach eTO, I WILL LEAVE! I'm OK with all those new skills, doesn't matter if they are good or bad, this is a question of personal preferences (you may or may not get them, obviously), but if simpliest way of mage will require elements to play well... Unless they make element % based buffs (more light attr % = stronger SoH). Or add element % to MA calculation, huh? Why melee single hit is (AP+AP*ELEMENT %)-DP?? Make it (MA+MA*ELEMENT %)-MD, huh?! Biggest BS ever...
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01-23-2012   #9728 (permalink)
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Yeah I would be disappointed too if they were to make sheep skills weaker by making everything attribute.
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01-23-2012   #9729 (permalink)
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I think I'd like all Mages to know that it was never specified (at least from what I saw) how much damage less you dealt. Parudy simply said that Mages "deal less" damage. Less damage like I had 2k MA and dealt 50k pre-nerf and following the nerf with the exact same MA I dealt 45k? Or less damage like I had 2k MA dealt 50k pre-nerf and following the nerf I now did 2k.
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01-23-2012   #9730 (permalink)
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I think he said the mages were really unhappy with the changes somewhere, which brings up the source of the unrest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by parudy88
It seems like even after the new elemental boost skills, the elemental magic damage is still lower than what it was before the patch. When the magic type users tried compounding elements to their weapons, the damage increase turned out to be minimal and not as effective, as it would mean giving up the MA and LK and you can only add one type of element to the weapon.

i.e. The only way you'll get a decent magic damage is to get the elemental accesories in MS and hax it with compounds. =_=......
After the new buff, it's still a damage cut. Sometimes getting the extra 10 MA to ohko something makes all the difference, and now we'll need even more MA.
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01-23-2012   #9731 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitara
Sometimes getting the extra 10 MA to ohko something makes all the difference, and now we'll need even more MA.
Which means everything in my thread is going to become incorrect, and which also means EVERYTHING will need to be re-tested.

This doesn't make me happy, not only for this reason, but for the fact that my Sheep's build is centered around MA and HP. Having to use attribute would mean that I'll lose thousands of HP and hundreds of MA. The build would become completely and utterly useless.
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01-23-2012   #9732 (permalink)
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One of the first things I thought of was your thread, Josh Q_Q

Who knows, it can scale with level pretty dramatically, this honestly makes me want to bench my sheep for a while.
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01-23-2012   #9733 (permalink)
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I doubt the nerf will be that bad though :< If it does make our damage comparable to buffaloes, it just means we stack less MA for 2/3 attributes of our choice and then give priority to stack HP and LK more.

So, let's say we had 1.5k MA before nerf and we did 20k w/ electro on ice bears. After the nerf, we get rid of 500 MA from our arc stick, stack 200% electric attribute, and we would be doing the same or even more damage than before. That leaves room for our MA accessories to be HP since the amount of extra MA won't be that needed anymore. This is for PvM perspective though. I don't know how it will affect PvP, since using an inferno helm+cape+shield, w/ a chaos staff of your choice would surely cause the loss of a MA hat, cape, HP shield for all those fire/elec types.
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01-23-2012   #9734 (permalink)
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No. No. NO <_<

How ******* stupid is that?? Changing the stat needed for all the element skills?!? Go ahead and change all Power attacks to MD then, and make Guns based on elements too, and oh make Foxes need HV for their hits while charms need DA? <_<
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01-23-2012   #9735 (permalink)
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Eeep, nevermind and disregard my previous post. Looks like the damage will be shitty.
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01-23-2012   #9736 (permalink)
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The thing is; Hybrids have 3 elements. xxx/xxx/Light or Dark. How are you going to balance them all?

In PvM, it may not be so bad, but in PvP.. Well, I expect no mage to ever go there again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Almora
it just means we stack less MA for 2/3 attributes of our choice and then give priority to stack HP and LK more.
Literally all (except staff and sprint) of my equips that I wear 80% of the time is already compounded with HP. So this is just going to be a HUGE loss for me.
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01-23-2012   #9737 (permalink)
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I feel even more sorry for those who have less popular elements, especially wind and earth. Q_Q Much less being a hybrid too. Now I know in the case of my sheep (wind/water/light) she wasn't meant to be powerful (at least compared to a fire/electric/light or dark...), but in handling boss monsters and doing Chaos Tower, she would probably be fudged.

And playing as a dark hybrid and Soul Master, you also have to worry about HP. If att gets introduced into the mix, it'd get a lot harder to balance out. I also personally think that dark hybrids got the short end of the stick (not even new 2nd job skill WTH), and with elemental, then yeah... Seeing one would be a rare(er?) sight indeed.
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01-23-2012   #9738 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixen
No. No. NO <_<

How ******* stupid is that?? Changing the stat needed for all the element skills?!? Go ahead and change all Power attacks to MD then, and make Guns based on elements too, and oh make Foxes need HV for their hits while charms need DA? <_<
I personally think it was to address the problem with Light Hybrids, who can more or less just stack MA everywhere and not have to worry about any other stat (in PvM). So while it was designed to nerf Light Hybrids, it kind of just whiffed and hit all Magics.

However, I would like to point out that your comparisons are inaccurate. It is somewhat of a rational change that you could argue in favor and against. Your other comparisons are just random changes to stats for no reason. It is somewhat logical that elemental magic damage have an elemental attr% component of it as Powers already had that component prior to the change and now Magics are getting it as well.

I don't agree with the change, but I feel in a way as if people are almost being irrational about it when we don't even have the full-scope of what the change is.
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01-23-2012   #9739 (permalink)
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If the all the dark skills after this change are affected by dark attribute (and not just the 3rd job skills) after the update, I'll actually be pretty happy. I walk around with 3xx%+ dark attribute all the time in PvE, so it'll help boost my dmg by quite a bit for 2nd job spells.
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Change SoH then so they don't need MA for the shield or something, cause this just puts dark mages at such a huge disadvantage. I'm complaining about it because I am a dark mage and I don't want to think about stacking element percentage/MA/LK/HP/HV for PvP
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Bunny Box Sword? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 04-06-2009 10:09 AM
new absolutly unique set - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 04-06-2009 02:35 AM
Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 04-03-2009 01:37 AM
kTO - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 04-02-2009 04:31 PM
Any new 3rd job skills? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 04-01-2009 07:08 PM
Double the trouble? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 04-01-2009 02:29 PM
E-Marriage? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 04-01-2009 02:25 PM
Best Elements? - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 03-31-2009 12:18 PM
E-Marriage? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-31-2009 07:21 AM
Bunny Box Sword? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-29-2009 09:28 AM
3rd Job Priest? - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 03-28-2009 08:19 AM
Bunny Box Sword? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-25-2009 06:54 PM
E-Marriage? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-25-2009 06:51 PM
E-Marriage? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-25-2009 08:50 AM
Bunny Box Sword? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-25-2009 05:37 AM
Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 03-24-2009 10:19 PM
3rd Job Priest? - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 03-24-2009 08:16 PM
Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 03-24-2009 11:49 AM
new absolutly unique set - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-24-2009 01:48 AM
new absolutly unique set - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-22-2009 12:39 AM
kTO - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-20-2009 11:37 PM
&#3649;&#3614;&#3607;&#3651;&#3627;&#3617;&#3656; kTO - &#3619;&#3632;&#3610;&#3610;&#3621;&#3656;&#3634;&#3610;&#3629;&#3626;&#3651;&#3627;&#3617;&#3656; This thread Refback 03-20-2009 10:11 PM
&#3649;&#3614;&#3607;&#3651;&#3627;&#3617;&#3656; kTO - &#3619;&#3632;&#3610;&#3610;&#3621;&#3656;&#3634;&#3610;&#3629;&#3626;&#3651;&#3627;&#3617;&#3656; This thread Refback 03-20-2009 06:53 PM
&#3649;&#3614;&#3607;&#3651;&#3627;&#3617;&#3656; kTO - &#3619;&#3632;&#3610;&#3610;&#3621;&#3656;&#3634;&#3610;&#3629;&#3626;&#3651;&#3627;&#3617;&#3656; This thread Refback 03-20-2009 03:44 PM
kTO - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-20-2009 01:59 PM
smexy exp boost on rose garden in kto/cto(and other area quests) comming soon to eto? hopefully - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-19-2009 06:23 AM
kTO - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-18-2009 09:55 PM
«Firefly» Wiki This thread Refback 03-18-2009 02:19 PM
Any new 3rd job skills? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-18-2009 10:20 AM
Any new 3rd job skills? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-16-2009 02:09 PM
Lightning, Fire, Dark Witch - Trickster Online Revolution Post #0 Refback 03-16-2009 12:18 PM
looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-15-2009 02:55 PM
Tombeth set? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-15-2009 07:57 AM
new absolutly unique set - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-15-2009 07:57 AM
E-Marriage? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-13-2009 10:57 PM
new absolutly unique set - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-13-2009 09:15 PM
Tombeth set? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-13-2009 04:32 PM
Tombeth set? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-13-2009 03:29 AM
Tombeth set? - Trickster Online Revolution This thread Refback 03-13-2009 01:09 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 02-27-2009 08:33 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - offical artwork of fox/racoon pet This thread Refback 02-27-2009 07:50 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - offical artwork of fox/racoon pet This thread Refback 02-27-2009 07:23 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Tombeth set? This thread Refback 02-21-2009 04:49 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Re: Tombeth set? This thread Refback 02-16-2009 03:00 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 02-14-2009 08:48 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 02-12-2009 02:34 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - kTO This thread Refback 02-11-2009 11:12 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - kTO This thread Refback 02-11-2009 04:30 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Tombeth set? This thread Refback 02-10-2009 02:48 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 02-09-2009 02:55 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - kTO This thread Refback 02-08-2009 10:53 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - kTO This thread Refback 02-08-2009 09:07 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Tombeth set? This thread Refback 02-08-2009 06:30 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Tombeth set? This thread Refback 02-08-2009 05:41 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - kTO This thread Refback 02-08-2009 03:48 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) Post #0 Refback 02-07-2009 06:28 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - smexy exp boost on rose garden in kto/cto(and other area quests) comming soon to eto? hopefully This thread Refback 02-03-2009 09:54 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - smexy exp boost on rose garden in kto/cto(and other area quests) comming soon to eto? hopefully This thread Refback 02-03-2009 09:18 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-27-2009 05:44 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-27-2009 06:12 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Re: new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-26-2009 08:52 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-23-2009 05:24 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-23-2009 04:56 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-23-2009 10:15 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-23-2009 09:58 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-23-2009 07:51 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 10:50 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 09:13 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 08:12 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 06:52 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 05:22 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Best Elements? Post #0 Refback 01-22-2009 03:34 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 10:44 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 08:35 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 08:29 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 08:16 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - new absolutly unique set This thread Refback 01-22-2009 08:16 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Elec/water Sheep going Witch Post #0 Refback 01-11-2009 07:18 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Re: Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 01-08-2009 05:22 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 01-04-2009 01:58 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Re: Elec/water Sheep going Witch Post #0 Refback 01-02-2009 10:16 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Best Elements? Post #0 Refback 01-01-2009 09:13 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 01-01-2009 06:39 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 01-01-2009 06:54 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-30-2008 03:22 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 12-28-2008 04:30 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 12-28-2008 01:48 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 12-28-2008 10:06 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - looks like we may get snow hill revo soon + exp boosts on previous quests This thread Refback 12-28-2008 09:51 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-24-2008 09:25 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-18-2008 03:12 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Re: Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-17-2008 08:06 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-07-2008 04:37 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-06-2008 04:18 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-04-2008 07:44 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 12-04-2008 02:16 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 06:47 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 01:11 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 12:54 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 11:57 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 11:43 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 10:46 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Bunny Box Sword? This thread Refback 12-03-2008 10:34 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 11-01-2008 12:26 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Any new 3rd job skills? This thread Refback 10-30-2008 04:12 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Any new 3rd job skills? This thread Refback 10-29-2008 09:35 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Any new 3rd job skills? This thread Refback 10-28-2008 07:36 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 10-24-2008 11:17 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 10-20-2008 06:30 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 10-17-2008 07:17 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 10-14-2008 11:23 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 10-14-2008 11:11 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 10-14-2008 09:01 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Double the trouble? This thread Refback 10-14-2008 08:54 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 10-09-2008 01:48 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - User Information. Post #0 Refback 09-28-2008 09:27 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - User Information. Post #0 Refback 09-28-2008 09:25 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) Post #0 Refback 09-23-2008 11:38 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 09-16-2008 12:10 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 09-15-2008 12:51 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 09-14-2008 02:28 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Re: New Skills Post #0 Refback 09-12-2008 03:44 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Elec/water Sheep going Witch Post #0 Refback 09-12-2008 10:31 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 09-11-2008 09:43 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 09-11-2008 07:02 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - 3rd Job Priest? Post #0 Refback 09-11-2008 06:54 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Elec/water Sheep going Witch Post #0 Refback 09-06-2008 02:12 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Best Elements? Post #0 Refback 08-22-2008 10:36 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - E-Marriage? This thread Refback 08-14-2008 10:15 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Lightning, Fire, Dark Witch Post #0 Refback 08-06-2008 03:56 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) Post #0 Refback 08-06-2008 01:41 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - Lightning, Fire, Dark Witch Post #0 Refback 08-06-2008 10:53 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - Phoenix Rising (Self Damage?) Post #0 Refback 08-06-2008 10:11 AM
Trickster Online Revolution - E-Marriage? This thread Refback 07-02-2008 10:22 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - E-Marriage? This thread Refback 07-01-2008 05:30 PM
Trickster Online Revolution - E-Marriage? This thread Refback 07-01-2008 08:44 AM

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