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-   -   We need to speak out to SGI/GameRage[Concerning GameGuard] (http://ggftw.com/forum/trickster-online-general-chat/117804-we-need-speak-out-sgi-gamerage-concerning-gameguard.html)

Swadloon 10-08-2012 01:04 AM

We need to speak out to SGI/GameRage[Concerning GameGuard]
 
The purpose of this thread is an effort to encourage the community to speak up against SGI/Gamerage for the decision to re-add GameGuard and to discuss ways to get their attention towards this problem.

As you all know, after the 9/26 maintenance GameGuard is once again implemented into the game because they felt the game needed more "protection" against exploits I suppose. However, this is a very impetuous and foolish decision on their part due to how awful it works with computers, particularly Win7 and Vista. Just a glance around this forum, Google, or the official forums and you can see how many people are unable to play properly and how potentially hazardous it can be with the amount of crashing/freezing it causes. It is generally not a reliable program and definitely not something the GMs should use to watch over the game when they are unable to.

The question is why should we just sit and deal with this? It was obvious they knew how unbearable it was to us since it was once removed, adding it back even knowing about the potential errors is pretty low to say the least. Ever since they do not seem generally concerned, they had a short maint which did not fix things for a lot of people still and although Raven made a thread for those having issues they have been strangely absent from it the past few days. It is almost if the GMs are trying to hide from the issue, waiting for the commotion to die down in hopes things will be the way it was before with a few complaints here and there.

This is a cowardly and unacceptable move if that is the case. Even if that is not what they're doing, something is still very wrong here. Why should we break our backs trying to find various "solutions" that may not fully help solve things and still having to deal with errors and disconnections, when they didn't even take how would we feel into consideration.

That is why I feel we need to be more vocal regarding the issue. There needs to be more out pour on the official forums, and 1:1s. But where? here is a thread for those wishing to get rid of GameGuard and here is the thread Raven posted for those still having issues and although its unlikely Raven will actually be of any help i'd still suggest posting what problem you're having and your opinions as well if you wish. And of course, if you have something you want to post there thats a fresh take on the subject you're welcome to make a new thread. There is also 1:1s, including a "feedback" category for those who don't have any errors but still want to voice their concerns/criticisms. Even if you can play the game just fine you can still speak out for the rest of the community! Also keep in mind not everyone ingame pays attention to ggftw nor the official forums so please spread word and encourage them to post as well.

Will it work? Unfortunately no matter what we say they are no way obligated to actually remove it, but it is better to speak up rather than silently being angry over it. Maybe if a sudden flood of messages comes along they'll actually think, "Wow we really screwed up here." its worth a try and hey, you'll get a chance to let out your feelings. While you'll want to be cordial and not send inflammatory messages in your forum/1:1 posts, there is nothing wrong with being honest either. Tell them every reason why you think their decision is a bad idea, and if you quit or have considered quitting over it, mention that too. It was removed once before, maybe we can convince them to do it again. But giving up won't accomplish anything.

Like I mentioned in the beginning of this post, this is also a discussion thread so if you have anything to post like articles, possible ideas, or just talking about the issue in general then please do! Your help is appreciated.

KieranCarden 10-08-2012 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swadloon (Post 1774622)
That is why I feel we need to be more vocal regarding the issue. There needs to be more out pour on the official forums, and 1:1s.

There's an extremely good chance that won't do anything. Why? Because the GMs are already aware of the issues that GameGuard causes. Many people have given their opinion/problem. That thread Raven started is 17 pages long, 162 posts - now while there are probably multiple posts by the same person, that's still a decent chunk of information. Given the best case scenario (161 unique posts excluding Raven, no GM replies, no multiple posts, and every post being a reported issue), that's a lot of information to easily conclude that GG is NOT good for Trickster, nor the player. Being more vocal at this point is going to fall on deaf ears, and possibly get people in trouble if they rage hard enough for nothing being done.

Words without action more often than not is utterly pointless. That's the case here. From one of the other GG related threads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Care (Post 1774712)
At this point; I'm not entirely sure why you people are still logging on the game. Clearly this poorly modified GameGuard is doing more harm than good.

This is exactly what needs to be done for them to realize that GG is hindering their game. People need to stop playing. Stop finding ways around GG, stop finding fixes, just stop. Leave the game.

Yes I'm aware that people have quit due to GG. Some people have said they're leaving. But until you have enough quit that it severely impacts their business (cash flow), then good luck getting anything done by just making posts and 1:1s. The small amount of people that have left does not outweigh the majority that still play and still dump money into the game.

If you're having issues, big or small, then just stop playing. Seriously. By continuing to play you're telling the company: "Playing Trickster is more important to me than the damage GG may be causing to my computer, so I'm going to deal with it." No game is worth that, no matter how you justify it. Also by doing this you nullify your argument/opinion. Rage all you want, but when you log into Trickster and put up with GG you're not giving SGI/GameRage an incentive to remove GG. You're saying you'll deal with it regardless. Unless you've actually quit the game due to this, you're not helping matters.

Gather enough people to quit, and your cause may then show some results. Then of course you risk them deciding that if enough people quit, the game isn't profitable anymore and to drop it. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

DELiTO 10-08-2012 06:08 PM

Don't put your hopes in 1:1 tickets. Their excellent service will only give you a pre-made general answer...

fate23 10-08-2012 11:14 PM

phantasy star online 2 JAP recently added gameguard and people over there are having troubles with it too.

Rydia 10-08-2012 11:23 PM

I think the only thing that will work is when they notice a dent in their profits from people quitting. ):

Sakurah 10-08-2012 11:32 PM

So basically, what most are saying is to show apathy and just stop playing, regardless if one can actually log on. That's like leading a mule to water and expecting it to drink.

I'm sorry, but just being apathetic about Gameguard is not enough. Clearly most players did what they could, and while I do sympathize with folks who is completely unable to log on (as I am with my desktop) or would not risk their computers just to play TO, just saying "screw it" is not enough.

The key is patience. Not in endless supply, but sorely needed.

Of course, the choice of playing TO, Gameguard or not, is completely up to the player, at their discretion. You cannot just simply suggest to others to "stop playing", especially if they really don't want to. I suppose there's more to come in future patches ahead, but for now, I'm more curious to see how this blows over.

EDIT: Understanding how SGI operates, I do agree with Rydia on SGI possibly waking up after seeing those that already quit/"quit"/on hiatus stop buying MS. Like I already said, more curious about the impending outcome~

R 10-09-2012 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fate23 (Post 1774804)
phantasy star online 2 JAP recently added gameguard and people over there are having troubles with it too.

PSO2 has always had GameGuard. It was just an update to it that bright forth the issues.

GameGuard: Protecting You From Your PC

But the related issues were fixed last month.

PSO2 Nprotect GameGuard Issues (9/04/2012)

I've been playing it and haven't had a single problem.

fate23 10-09-2012 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Care (Post 1774815)
PSO2 has always had GameGuard. It was just an update to it that bright forth the issues.

GameGuard: Protecting You From Your PC

But the related issues were fixed last month.

PSO2 Nprotect GameGuard Issues (9/04/2012)

I've been playing it and haven't had a single problem.

I don't actually play the game i just see some friends posting about it and so i tried looking it up.
i saw this thread but not really sure as i don't play it
JP PSO2 Evil Gameguard Update - Page 74 - PSO-World.com Forums

KieranCarden 10-09-2012 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rarity (Post 1774809)
So basically, what most are saying is to show apathy and just stop playing, regardless if one can actually log on. That's like leading a mule to water and expecting it to drink.

I'm sorry, but just being apathetic about Gameguard is not enough. Clearly most players did what they could, and while I do sympathize with folks who is completely unable to log on (as I am with my desktop) or would not risk their computers just to play TO, just saying "screw it" is not enough.

The key is patience. Not in endless supply, but sorely needed.

Of course, the choice of playing TO, Gameguard or not, is completely up to the player, at their discretion. You cannot just simply suggest to others to "stop playing", especially if they really don't want to. I suppose there's more to come in future patches ahead, but for now, I'm more curious to see how this blows over.

EDIT: Understanding how SGI operates, I do agree with Rydia on SGI possibly waking up after seeing those that already quit/"quit"/on hiatus stop buying MS. Like I already said, more curious about the impending outcome~

For the record, playing Trickster and not being concerned about GameGuard is being apathetic towards it. Quitting Trickster because of GameGuard isn't.

You seemed to have missed the point. To stop playing to prove a point is not being apathetic, it's to show SGI that you're not going to put up with their crappy service. It's making a statement. It's backing up the posts people make so their words aren't empty. It's far from apathy.

Yes, quitting is at the sole discretion of the player, and yes I simply can suggest for people to "stop playing" because it's the quickest way to get results - and it's a suggestion, not a forcing act. It's the fastest way to show them their player base is and will drop. It's the easiest way to put a dent in their wallet (this one being the main thing that would get their attention the fastest).

Approach the problem from the business aspect of things, not from being a player. Saying "screw it" as you put it is the fastest way to make them realize the problem. When you cut into a business model, it tends to have that effect. You said the key is patience but then kind of contradict yourself in agreeing that the lack of MS would wake them up. Btw, the odds go up of MS dropping if the player base drops. Even dedicated MS buyers will stop spending on a game that has a lacking population.

So you can take action, or you could be patient and just wait to see what happens. How long was GameGuard around the first time? If the GMs feel it's needed, and the players keep playing regardless, I see no reason why they would get rid of it honestly. After all, it's not hurting them.

Groups of people never got what they wanted by idly sitting around and just accepting what's given to them without change. Strikes happen for a reason, and they work for a reason.

Swadloon 10-10-2012 12:19 AM

While I do agree that people quitting will be more effective, wouldn't it be a lot harder to convince them to do something like that? I'm aware that the staff is notoriously bad at checking 1:1s, but given the fact that they do sometimes reply in detail there has to be someone who checks every once in awhile, and if that someone checked just to see a mass flood of complaints for the same thing that might take them by surprise.

Granted, I do see what you mean about the loss of profit and there are people who have already started quitting over it. ..The frustrating part is that there is no way to tell if its enough. I don't know if you guys are interested in doing so but getting more people to join in with quitting would help a lot though. Either way, something has to be done.

I just can't help but find it jarring they would add it back since GameGuard isn't any good for protection and the fact the Raven supposedly claimed that it would help with map move errors when those have existed since the old GameGuard. Its a real damn shame that they rushed in ahead without thinking and causing this mess.

Nebula 10-10-2012 01:53 AM

Unfortunately the only person that you can control the habits of is yourself.. whether that is playing a game or spending money.
It is possible to persuade people to do things like strike and such but first you need them to listen to your cause.

I have to say I have had one good thing from gameguard. It is not a good enough benefit to warrant to keep gameguard but it's still a good thing.

I have this issue where my router will restart itself. This sends me back to the start menu however my character stays logged in. I cannot get into the account for a minute or so.
Now when I log into another account, I get disconnected due to abnormal connection and it takes me less time to get back in.


----
I assume it is only 10% of the population that now cannot get online at all. Many of us, like myself are more that happy to complacently sit down and continue play the game as usual.

---
But for the benefit of that 10%, I believe that Gameguard should be removed and replaced with something less harmful and compatible with all PCs


btw any Mac/Linux users able to get on?

fate23 10-10-2012 02:08 AM

I think if a lot of people quit the game SGI would just close TO. As for gameguard i think it's not effective as a anti-hacking system.

KieranCarden 10-10-2012 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swadloon (Post 1775070)
Granted, I do see what you mean about the loss of profit and there are people who have already started quitting over it. ..The frustrating part is that there is no way to tell if its enough. I don't know if you guys are interested in doing so but getting more people to join in with quitting would help a lot though. Either way, something has to be done.

Granted it would help, there's just too much risk involved for the players that are completely immersed in the game. There's people who won't risk their computers safety, and there's people that will just to be able to play. The majority in this case is those who will, and convincing them otherwise will be near impossible. What I was trying to get across was that in the end the best way to get their attention is to basically go on strike. It won't happen though. As fate23 put it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fate23 (Post 1775090)
I think if a lot of people quit the game SGI would just close TO. As for gameguard i think it's not effective as a anti-hacking system.

And that's the dilemma. With it comes that risk - and that's not something people are going to risk. Like I said, between a rock and a hard place.

I for one would like to figure out just how many people are affected by this, and how many have no problems at all. That would be a good determining factor to find out. But being that not everyone frequents ggftw, or the official forums, to state their problems, that's going to be impossible to find out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cepheid (Post 1775087)
btw any Mac/Linux users able to get on?

I use a Mac running Windows on a partition; I'm able to get on. Aside from the usual laggy Firefox (which isn't exclusive to a GameGuard issue - but rather Firefox just being what it is), I don't have any issues.

R 10-10-2012 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KieranCarden
There's people who won't risk their computers safety, and there's people that will just to be able to play

I think it's more due to ignorance, really. Most people won't think twice about a program that was design to protect.

Unless they get a bluescreen or something, I honestly don't think that the majority are going to be aware how harmful GameGuard is being to their computer.

Ellerd 10-10-2012 04:14 AM

I think Rydia is right. When gameguard didn't allow ppl playing with windows 7 there was not many ppl quitting, but NOW. Do you see all the quitting threads? This game is a proof that money is power, that if you recharge you are hax...We all know that ..but atleast fix gameguard..ITS BORING!

Esperetta 10-10-2012 07:26 AM

There may be another way to bring about change, apart from outright quitting the game.

I've noticed lately that people have been using social media sites like facebook and twitter to protest, rally people to boycott, etc, and it can be quite effective...
E.g.
It seems to work if there are literally hundreds of people bombarding a company's facebook page with negative/angry comments until they capitulate.

So if players posted 'feedback' on TO's facebook page expressing their disappointment, rage and inability to log on due to GameGuard and map fails. Ya' know, the same stuff people post on ggftw. All this, followed by the inevitable drop in the number of players logging on (due to GG and such). Might make SGI sit up and pay attention.

Buut this does require a certain amount of cooperation within the community. Also you could get banned from their facebook page? lol.
So probably not going to happen. :rolleyes:

Aria 10-10-2012 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esperetta (Post 1775125)
Also you could get banned from their facebook page? lol.
So probably not going to happen. :rolleyes:

What reason would they have to ban someone if that person expresses their opinion politely?

Being angry doesn't mean you have to act so much like a retard that they would want to ban you.

Esperetta 10-12-2012 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rare (Post 1775131)
What reason would they have to ban someone if that person expresses their opinion politely?

Being angry doesn't mean you have to act so much like a retard that they would want to ban you.

lol of course.
But sadly not everyone knows that :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esperetta (Post 1775125)
Also you could get banned from their facebook page? lol.

I just added that little bit to basically cover my ass. So if it did happen and they come back and get angry at me, I can say; "Hey I did warn you~".

Lumini 10-12-2012 10:07 PM

I believe in response to this, they sent a GM to investigate.
Earlier today GM_Killigrew appeared near the Southeast Forest portal taking suggestions from players.

She will be online accepting more suggestions every Friday.
The next scheduled appointment is due at 4:30 P.M.
Jewelia Server.

Perhaps you can use this opportunity to voice your concerns without relying on the 1:1 support.

Card Hunter Eugene is currently bugged and they are in the process of resolving the issue. (For those who do not know.)

InfernalGuy 10-13-2012 02:58 AM

I've been wondering... How come I haven't gotten ANY problems even with GG on my PC? I use chrome while playing - no problems. I listen music while playing - no problems. Heck, I multi account - no problems! How come, guys?


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