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08-27-2012   3 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)
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Default An interesting point of discussion

Ok, this is some pretty sad procrastination.
Anyways, I just did a thread search for all the thread that were buying myshop. I recorded their asking price against the date the thread started (I did this to the nearest month). After that I plotted the time since 2010 started in months against the ms rate.
This is for jewelia only.

Here is my graph


Here's fantasia;


The rate increased at a pretty uniform rate up until novemeber-december 2011 and there there was a large jump. Ever since then, it has been fairly steady.

I notice during these months the following thread appeared at ggftw.
This and this.

So yeah, an interesting correlation that we have here.
I believe if i did the same for fantasia, I would not find the big jump, however, there would not be an even plateau during the last 6 months as is seen in jewelia.
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08-27-2012   #2 (permalink)
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interesting to know, glad I'm on fantasia now... although our prices aren't exactly cheap any more either... really I wonder why there are no gold sinks in the economy? At this rate the total number of galder in the economy can only go up over time... which means inflation is a no brainer... meaning newer players will inevitably be more disadvantaged barring this fast-track period where we get free levels and such...

I mean they try to help the newbies by giving more galder during events and such but that probably just make it worse in the long run Then again I'm not sure how a gold-sink would work in a mmorpg economy... never did economics xP

edit: yeah maybe that's what those skill card packs were supposed to be for... I don't think they work that well though...

But aside from that, yeah sucks for Jewelians...
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08-27-2012   #3 (permalink)
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An interesting one would be putting the prices of blood swords on that plot as well. You will notice they didn't inflation as much.
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08-27-2012   #4 (permalink)
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Gold sinks have nothing to do with understanding economics on an academic scale. Examples of gold sinks are repair bills (standard in most mmos), Transmogrification, Reforging, and more in WoW. It's easier for me to think of examples in WoW because WoW actually comes with a lot of the features an MMO needs to stay semi-stable on it's own (economy wise).

For those who aren't well versed in WoW: they added a Void Storage where it costs like 500g to even begin using one, and it's used to store vanity gear for the new Transmog system, which works like Fusing in TO except you can do it infinite times and it uses more in-game currency (there's the gold sink!) and the gear only mirrors the Visual item, meaning there's no husk-type equipment. Essentially, the whole system lets you look prettier and also takes gold out of the economy that could have lead to extreme excess and inflation. Reforging allows you to change secondary stats (hit, haste, crit, etc). Oh and every single time you put an item in the storage, a fee is slapped on you. And I mean every time. Gold sink, ahoy!


The easiest gold-sink to implement is a repair system where as you use gear, the durability drops over time.


tl;dr; Gold sinks are in-game features that cost a decent amount of gold that needs to be used often by players in order to keep playing, think of it like an upkeep fee. It stops players from accumulating too much gold because they need to "sink" it into the NPCs every-so-often. If gold keeps going from player to player without it leaving the economy, we get inflation.
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08-27-2012   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare
Gold sinks have nothing to do with understanding economics on an academic scale. Examples of gold sinks are repair bills (standard in most mmos), Transmogrification, Reforging, and more in WoW. It's easier for me to think of examples in WoW because WoW actually comes with a lot of the features an MMO needs to stay semi-stable on it's own (economy wise).

For those who aren't well versed in WoW: they added a Void Storage where it costs like 500g to even begin using one, and it's used to store vanity gear for the new Transmog system, which works like Fusing in TO except you can do it infinite times and it uses more in-game currency (there's the gold sink!) and the gear only mirrors the Visual item, meaning there's no husk-type equipment. Essentially, the whole system lets you look prettier and also takes gold out of the economy that could have lead to extreme excess and inflation. Reforging allows you to change secondary stats (hit, haste, crit, etc). Oh and every single time you put an item in the storage, a fee is slapped on you. And I mean every time. Gold sink, ahoy!


The easiest gold-sink to implement is a repair system where as you use gear, the durability drops over time.


tl;dr; Gold sinks are in-game features that cost a decent amount of gold that needs to be used often by players in order to keep playing, think of it like an upkeep fee. It stops players from accumulating too much gold because they need to "sink" it into the NPCs every-so-often. If gold keeps going from player to player without it leaving the economy, we get inflation.
thanks for the lesson and the WOW example, and it sounds like TO really needs this to some degree! There is quite literally nothing to stop the economy from inflating over time...
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08-27-2012   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silence
thanks for the lesson and the WOW example, and it sounds like TO really needs this to some degree! There is quite literally nothing to stop the economy from inflating over time...
There are gold sinks in Trickster (job changes, compounding, teleports, refining, potions), the main problem is that they don't sink fast enough to compensate for the amount of gold moving in the game. If you wanted to stop inflation, you'd have to block MyShop gifting, which obviously won't happen. And additionally, the graph alludes to the fact that galder isn't being added to the economy anymore since the price of MyShop has stagnated. Part of the reason MyShop inflated so quickly to begin with is the massive amounts of galder that were added to the market via the mail glitch.
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08-27-2012   #7 (permalink)
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I think you should plot one for fantasia too. From what i remember around start til mid of last yr rates in fantasia were like 5m/1k at most but around the end of that yr it shot up to 15m. Now it's 25m/1k and at this rate there isn't even any galder glitch that has happend. Another similar graph would be level up gift box which rapidly rose in price(as much as 15m) but recently settled down to 10-12m probably because of the level glitch or this fast track event.
It is true that blood swords didn't really go up in price at best it became 600m but it's now down to 400m. But if you look at ice axe it started at 600m when it was released and took a long while to shoot up to 1b then suddenly it becomes 2b and maybe even more now.
 
08-27-2012   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fate23
I think you should plot one for fantasia too. From what i remember around start til mid of last yr rates in fantasia were like 5m/1k at most but around the end of that yr it shot up to 15m. Now it's 25m/1k and at this rate there isn't even any galder glitch that has happend. Another similar graph would be level up gift box which rapidly rose in price(as much as 15m) but recently settled down to 10-12m probably because of the level glitch or this fast track event.
It is true that blood swords didn't really go up in price at best it became 600m but it's now down to 400m. But if you look at ice axe it started at 600m when it was released and took a long while to shoot up to 1b then suddenly it becomes 2b and maybe even more now.
I tried to look for fantasia, there are not as many threads as there are Jewelian ones. Maybe if I include buying and selling, I can get enough data. let me see
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08-27-2012   #9 (permalink)
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It is an interesting look and comparison. ;o I think another item that actually hasn't inflated nearly as much would be Harkon in Fantasia. I'd expect to see it for 10m or more, but actually have seen it for 6-8m a piece. But of course, Harkon by itself is only useful for 3rd job changes and the first Guardian.

In short, too much demand, not enough supply, not enough sinks. The big sink I can only think of is tempering/refining high level equips, that can get expensive fast (not counting buying CFs in bulk from other players as that obviously doesn't count). Obviously, refining MyShop equipment doesn't count. I don't know about tempering.
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08-27-2012   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheid
I tried to look for fantasia, there are not as many threads as there are Jewelian ones. Maybe if I include buying and selling, I can get enough data. let me see
Yea back then i guess there were very few people from fantasia who actually use this forums for buying and selling. Good luck on making one and I think these graphs are great.
 
08-27-2012   #11 (permalink)
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from what i experience the economy in jewelia isnt that bad
if you know how to sell things then there should be no problem :3
and everyone can help push boss unique prices down o3o
in jewelia i would sell my next ice sword for like 3,5B thats not to bad for buyers

2009 when i started i was vending quest items at paradise town 10m in a week?
now we get much faster galders i have no problems O:

i shake my head everytime people say jewelia economy is sooooo bad
but really we get so much easier galders compared to past just saying

the way i see Jewelia and Fantasia

Jewelia more expensive but you also earn galders faster
Fantasia you earn less and things are cheaper
not huge difference to me O:
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08-27-2012   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fate23
Yea back then i guess there were very few people from fantasia who actually use this forums for buying and selling. Good luck on making one and I think these graphs are great.

There you go.
There are some nice gaps in there but you can see an overall trend. Looks like fantasia is going up still.

I think you are all correct in saying that our galder sinks are inadequate. If there is going to be a galder sink, it needs to be at the end of the game. (we do not want to hurt newbies)
Stardust makes a decent one for some people. Even something like an npc that sells cute equips for hundreds of millions, or a 700k pack that may contain something rare and cute. Introducing a system that hurts a current system is a big no. So a galder sink will need to be an entirely new system/item.
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08-27-2012   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kite384
from what i experience the economy in jewelia isnt that bad
if you know how to sell things then there should be no problem :3
and everyone can help push boss unique prices down o3o
in jewelia i would sell my next ice sword for like 3,5B thats not to bad for buyers

i shake my head everytime people say jewelia economy is sooooo bad
but really we get so much easier galders compared to past just saying

Jewelia more expensive but you also earn galders faster
Fantasia you earn less and things are cheaper
not huge difference to me O:
Two problems:

1) Not everyone has the characters to farm bosses all day and get "lucky." *cough* *cough*

2) Easier to earn galders means that the galders are worth less. 10m in 2009 was worth a lot more than 10m now. You can still buy a fair amount of things with 10m now, but you're not going to get much further than quest items.

Jewelia's economy is ****ed up, and it is quite ignorant of you to say otherwise. So I'll just shake my head a bit.
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08-27-2012   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jare
There are gold sinks in Trickster (job changes, compounding, teleports, refining, potions), the main problem is that they don't sink fast enough to compensate for the amount of gold moving in the game. If you wanted to stop inflation, you'd have to block MyShop gifting, which obviously won't happen. And additionally, the graph alludes to the fact that galder isn't being added to the economy anymore since the price of MyShop has stagnated. Part of the reason MyShop inflated so quickly to begin with is the massive amounts of galder that were added to the market via the mail glitch.
oops missed your post until now... I agree those gold sinks are really not enough... they really hardly make a dent in the amount of gold we have unless you only have 1-2M to throw around. And yeah it seems most of Jewelia's mass inflation was the glitch reason... so it really can't be fixed at this point because they didn't take the galders out when it happened, probably didn't want to upset everyone with a roll back I suppose...

Guess newbies can always start on fantasia!
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