Why can't people understand that romance anime NOT = Harem!!!

weissritter · 08-11-2009

Ok is it me or is it that people now a days classify any romance anime an automatic harem?

Something seems wrong here. It kind of rules out 90% of all animes.

But then people sees 2+ female heroines and goes OMG its HAREM!!!

I know that sometimes it gets joke about how the guy hangs out with 2 girls and how 2 or more girls likes the guy. But then in the end, the guy just ends up with just 1 girl and rejects the other.

HOW THE HECK CAN YOU CALL THAT HAREM!!!!!

Since when does 1 guy with 1 girl an harem?!?!!?

Ok look at it a different way,

Guy A chats with more than 1 girls everyday. And socialize with occasional flirt with the girls. (pretty common nowadays) Some likes him, but the guy only truly stays with 1 girl. Does that mean Guy A is a player? Does that mean that Guy A have a harem consist of 3XXX girls??!?!!?

Ok another scenario:

Guy A, met Girl A, been together for 1 year, and the relationship didn't work out and broke up. So Guy A move on, then met girl B, and had a relationship for 1 month and that didn't work out too and broke up. Finally he met girl C where he still holds a relationship with and is going well.

Do we call Guy A, "ZOMG ITS HAREM, THE GUY HAS 3 GIRLS" But the funny thing is when you talk to Girl A about Guy A, and she will say, I don't know Guy A, never knew him. Now get lost. When you talk to Girl B, she will say, yea I know him, but we don't chat or do anything together anymore. Then ask her, are you part of his harem? She will say: "What? Hell NO... get lost!"

So ok, Guy A has a harem that consist of 3 girls and yet 2 of them does not even give a damn about Guy A. He can go die and they won't even talk with him...

Ok so you can say that many eroge allows you to pick various girls. But the point being is that you can only pick ONE GIRL. You only have an ending with ONE GIRL. You have to convince the girl that your are the right guy so they will like you before you get their ending. So when it gets transfer to anime, it is also the same way, one ending, one girl.

I guess Animenewsnetwork, AnimeDB would give a better classification. Its more like a love polygon anime. Their harem list has a better definition as to many anime where the main character has not yet decided on a girl, so I can agree with that it can be harem on that part. But when the main character does decides, I really can't find it on the list. With a special few exception of course.

I used wikipedia to search up the term. But as I had said, with that classification, it basically includes 90% of all animes.

So i don't know, but from what see, I feel bad for the countless good animes to be called ZOMG HAREM

Ok i'll stay off weird places now, it makes me go emo >_<

WhatThePho · 08-11-2009

Quote:

Kids with shitty taste

There's your problem.

SlowBro · 08-11-2009

Quote:

Kids with shitty taste

Well I guess in comparison real life, one girl would be harem .-.

weissritter · 08-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongo

Well I guess in comparison real life, one girl would be harem .-.

this is why i hate kids = =;

posu · 08-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by weissritter

in the end, the guy just ends up with just 1 girl and rejects the other.

HOW THE HECK CAN YOU CALL THAT HAREM!!!!!

By definition, harem includes all romance series where two girls are interested in one guy (or vice versa) and they can be one-way relationship. The guy does not have to be interested in both girls at all. Technically, that should include all romance-genre series. Certainly, if a romantic series contain only one girl and one guy alone forever, that would be pretty boring. In most cases, if not all cases, at least a third person is involved.

The definition is pretty vague/loose. In the end, it really depends on how a person interprets it.

For you, if the guy ends up with only one girl in the end, no matter how many girls there were to begin with, then it is not a harem. So then, you wouldn't include something like Ichigo 100% the manga. Likewise, IF Negi ends up only with Asuna at the end of the Negima manga, then you wouldn't consider it a harem either. My definition is something different.

Again, it depends on how a person interprets it.

Lyn · 08-11-2009

Lol, I know for a fact your rant was referring to my post in the anime section, so Im gonna clear up a few things for you.

If your rant was triggered off by me in particular, I'd already stated in my post that I did not view the "ef" series to be harem. Ive watched both series, seen the eroge they were based on, and each of the girls clearly were already paired with a unique guy, even if Kei in the first series was interested in Hiro at first, she eventually went out with Kyosuke (small spoiler for some there, heh). The only reason I'd put down their names at the time was just a sort of mental reminder as to which romance series I'd already watched. Romance =/= harem, that Im quite aware of, but just because I threw their names down together did not mean that I equated them with the rest. I even had a disclaimer stating the contrary.

As for Myself; Yourself, I havent played the game, but I have watched the series. In my mind, yes, thats a harem. Why? There are practically no other male characters in it besides Sana and Shuu, and Shuu is a secondary character at best. Yes, Hinako was interested in him and its possible that he could be paired off with his own twin sister as well, but like usopsama stated above, there could potentially be several girls who are interested in Sana all the same. Nanaka, the obvious one. Aoi, the oldest girl. Not much chemistry between Aoi and Sana, but in any eroge, its a possibility and Aoi is one of the heroines the player can choose. Yuzuki-sensei, Sana's homeroom teacher and a woman he's obviously shared some history with when he was young. Hinako, just a friend in the series but with all the time they've spent together, you never know. Asami, obviously very friendly with Sana (and vice versa), and then there's Shuri. They're all possible choices for Sana. You quoted me and said that Myself; Yourself couldnt be a harem, even though its quite obvious that it already is a harem. Unless you've played the game and can confirm that Sana cant choose anyone but Nanaka. But even then, I reserve the right to view this series as a harem, because there is one male protagonist and several female characters that surround him.

Btw, compare it with Love Hina. We all know Keitaro is interested in and only ends up with Naru, but that doesnt stop people from labelling it a harem because he lives with a bunch of girls.

PedroRomero · 08-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocaine

Btw, compare it with Love Hina. We all know Keitaro is interested in and only ends up with Naru, but that doesnt stop people from labelling it a harem because he lives with a bunch of girls.

yeah the entire time i read the OP i was thinking of Love Hina. by OPs definition Love Hina couldn't be Harem but I think Love Hina is like one of the titles that everyone considers harem right? but he only like naru and gets with her in the end.

isn't it harem if many girls (or maybe guys) are interested in one person and all compete for their attention or if their lives are changed and touched by the person.

but i guess like sakura taisen can be a example where he never quite ends up with anyone.

Lyn · 08-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroRomero

yeah the entire time i read the OP i was thinking of Love Hina. by OPs definition Love Hina couldn't be Harem but I think Love Hina is like one of the titles that everyone considers harem right? but he only like naru and gets with her in the end.

isn't it harem if many girls (or maybe guys) are interested in one person and all compete for their attention or if their lives are changed and touched by the person.

but i guess like sakura taisen can be a example where he never quite ends up with anyone.

Exactly. Almost all anime fans will probably agree that Love Hina is a harem, but its also quite obvious that Kei and Naru are the main couple and that they're only interested in each other. Usually a harem anime will be accompanied by some degree of fanservice, such as in Love Hina or Zero no Tsukaima. Just because the male protagonist has a clear love interest in one of the girls doesnt stop him from fantasizing about other girls or getting into compromising situations with them. Thats what fanservice is about, but it doesnt detract from the romantic developments that drive the series as a whole.

I dont want to get anal about definitions, but, a harem is defined as "a trend in Japanese anime or comics wherein a single male character is surrounded by multiple female characters, most of whom are romantically interested in the main character." The first and most important element of a harem is that of a single male char surrounded by multiple girls. The second element of them being romantically interested in the male lead is usually part of the package, but I dont think its always necessary.

And like Ive said, the ef series is an excellent example of a romance series with multiple male/female chars, that doesnt classify as a harem o_o

weissritter · 08-12-2009

Quote:

By definition, harem includes all romance series where two girls are interested in one guy (or vice versa) and they can be one-way relationship. The guy does not have to be interested in both girls at all. Technically, that should include all romance-genre series. Certainly, if a romantic series contain only one girl and one guy alone forever, that would be pretty boring. In most cases, if not all cases, at least a third person is involved.

The definition is pretty vague/loose. In the end, it really depends on how a person interprets it.

@ Usop

Points taken, however, i was expecting more from you.

My professor always had said: "the moment you quote Wikipedia as a a primary source, you already failed half of your argument."

Its a long writing, Sorry making you guys read.

As to why, I think you already would have known
Irish College Student Dupes Media With Wikipedia Hoax | WebProNews

You can even check out all the lacking citation signs. The concept is still vaguely out there and still possible room for change.

Anyways to entertain your points, I have searched and searched, and to my exhaustion(One whole day of distraction). I do have to agree with the general idea that this genre has been established thus far.

The general idea of "One guy many girls, doesn't matter how it goes, or the other way around, its called harem genre"

Which basically rules 90% of all anime out there.

I find it that the original anime concept would probably have came from Tenchi Muyo!. But the real first written literature concept comes from the early works of Genji Monogatari(AKA Tale of Genji). I guess it is weird for me to even start about this when only a handful of people on this forum knows about the work. So i'll skip it and basically cut it short.

The current genre of harem is vague and too undefined.

But with this definition, you can list

Suzumiya Haruhi
Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu
To Aru Majutsu no Index
Evangelion
gundam series
Higurashi no Naku Koroni series

goes on and on etc...

So shouldn't there be a borderline as to how anime are defined?

By blindly naming animes with more than 2 girls, as harem genre, is alittle... weird

Would you not agree?

A feeling inside me just says, "wait a minute, thats just not right here"

But if you do not have such conscience, then by all means feel free to just copy and paste all the 90% of anime out there.

I am no David or Galileo who can defeat the giant or change the world forever. So I cannot dispute with what has already been set forth semi in stone.

But I do wish to maintain a better image of how anime should be properly classified (at least for myself)

Which is why I was upset.

I really enjoyed Key Studio's works. I first started with Planetarian. A real touching Visual novel. Then I went on to all of its other works. They were all very good with the way they portrait miracles and how to touch you deep down inside where it hurts. Never a moment would you felt, OMG this is a Harem story. OMG so many girls going after the same guy.

None of that non-sense. It was meant to be, and only to be a pure love story.

But when it came to be anime, everything changed.

As I quote from how JP wiki on ハーレム系作品 had it:

"恋愛ゲームは、プレーヤーキャラクターである1人の主人公が多くの女性（男性）キャラと恋愛関係を持つため、アニメ化されるとハーレムアニメになりやすい。原作では1対1の関係が主となるゲームであっても、アニメ化の際に複数の分岐シナリオを1つのストーリーに再構築した結果、主人公が多数の女性（男性）と同時に関係を持っている、あるいは、頻繁に相手を取り替えているといった印象を与えることがある。"

So I summarize it as : When most Romance Games with 1 main character and many characters of the opposite sex were translated into Animes, they often easily be classify as Harem animes. Even though, the original work only contain 1 to 1 plot, when present in the anime, the many scenarios were compressed into one and therefore, the main character seems to be dealing with many character of the opposite sex at the same time. Or at least give an image that the main character is doing such.

Therefore, with the transformation, all these pure love stories suddenly turned into "ZOMG Harem"

The only Harem genre in the eroge section are only those that have more than 1 heroines ending up with the main male character or vice versa.

Also just because the story is 1 to 1, does not mean the story is boring. Some of the best works are :

The Voices of a Distant Star
Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora - looking up at the half-moon

oh and i can't really comment on the Ichigo 100% I haven't watch, or read it yet.

------------------------------------------------

You guys do have the right to think whatever you like and I am not trying to change anything here. Nor that I can for the matter, but I just want to get this out here. So that I feel better. It is a rant section afterall XD

@Pedro and Novo, if you can find an ending to the Anime of Love Hina where Naru and Keitaro were together, and there goes the end. I'll give you a cookie XD. I know for a fact that the anime did not have that, like the manga had it.

(yes it is a real curve ball, and you made me do it :P)

and if someone came to be an ass about EF, they can use the "anyone's wikipedia" definition and say, its a harem series.

I guess i'll forever stick with the originals where only the truth exist.

posu · 08-12-2009

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to flame you or anything. This post is meant to show you how your argument "may be" incorrect, at least to me, whether you believe me or not.

You lost me. It seems like you are just arguing for the sake of an argument now, no offense. And I'm very sorry. Most of your points are irrelevant. My definition from the post above is: "By definition, harem includes all romance series where two girls are interested in one guy (or vice versa) and they can be one-way relationship. "

Things like Evangelion do not count because they are NOT romance-driven series. Same for gundam, Haruhi and the rest of the examples you tried to show.

You lost me because you strayed away from the original topic. Originally, and if I'm not mistaken, you were saying how if one guy ends up with one girl in the end, it is not a harem. This is the original topic. This is what your opening post is about. And you didn't talk about it in your most recent post. You stray off somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weissritter

@ Usop

Points taken, however, i was expecting more from you.

My professor always had said: "the moment you quote Wikipedia as a a primary source, you already failed half of your argument."

Its a long writing, Sorry making you guys read.

As to why, I think you already would have known
Irish College Student Dupes Media With Wikipedia Hoax | WebProNews

You can even check out all the lacking citation signs. The concept is still vaguely out there and still possible room for change.

This is a poor attempt to disprove my points. The term "harem" used in anime/manga and whatnot is an informal term. It is a slang. This "informal" definition does not exist in an actual dictionary. I chose the definition from a wiki because it is the most reliable out of all sources possible, at least to me.

You know how slangs are like. There can be multiple definitions because there is no "one" set-definition. It depends on the person's interpretation.

The bits about your professor is a little irrelevant. We are not writing a 30-page research paper right now. Using the wiki may be a taboo in a college paper, but it is NOT when you are using it informally in a forum such as this. Likewise, you wouldn't say the wiki is a bad source when you are quoting it inside of a mmo, would you? Of course not. Because you are not using the source in a formal fashion. Same for the citation signs, we are not writing a college paper right now (this made me laugh, no offense).

Quote:

Originally Posted by weissritter

I find it that the original anime concept would probably have came from Tenchi Muyo!. But the real first written literature concept comes from the early works of Genji Monogatari(AKA Tale of Genji). I guess it is weird for me to even start about this when only a handful of people on this forum knows about the work. So i'll skip it and basically cut it short.

The current genre of harem is vague and too undefined.

But with this definition, you can list

Suzumiya Haruhi
Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu
To Aru Majutsu no Index
Evangelion
gundam series
Higurashi no Naku Koroni series

goes on and on etc...

So shouldn't there be a borderline as to how anime are defined?

By blindly naming animes with more than 2 girls, as harem genre, is alittle... weird

Would you not agree?

As proven above, these are not harems because they are not romance-driven, at least according to my definition above; ie: their plots do not revolve around romance. I know for a fact that Haruhi, Gundam and Evangelion are not. I'm not sure about the rest because I've never seen or read them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weissritter

A feeling inside me just says, "wait a minute, thats just not right here"

But if you do not have such conscience, then by all means feel free to just copy and paste all the 90% of anime out there.

I am no David or Galileo who can defeat the giant or change the world forever. So I cannot dispute with what has already been set forth semi in stone.

But I do wish to maintain a better image of how anime should be properly classified (at least for myself)

Which is why I was upset.

I really enjoyed Key Studio's works. I first started with Planetarian. A real touching Visual novel. Then I went on to all of its other works. They were all very good with the way they portrait miracles and how to touch you deep down inside where it hurts. Never a moment would you felt, OMG this is a Harem story. OMG so many girls going after the same guy.

None of that non-sense. It was meant to be, and only to be a pure love story.

But when it came to be anime, everything changed.

As I quote from how JP wiki on ハーレム系作品 had it:

"恋愛ゲームは、プレーヤーキャラクターである1人の主人公が多くの女性（男性）キャラと恋愛関係を持つため、アニメ化されるとハーレムアニメになりやすい。原作では1対1の関係が主となるゲームであっても、アニメ化の際に複数の分岐シナリオを1つのストーリーに再構築した結果、主人公が多数の女性（男性）と同時に関係を持っている、あるいは、頻繁に相手を取り替えているといった印象を与えることがある。"

So I summarize it as : When most Romance Games with 1 main character and many characters of the opposite sex were translated into Animes, they often easily be classify as Harem animes. Even though, the original work only contain 1 to 1 plot, when present in the anime, the many scenarios were compressed into one and therefore, the main character seems to be dealing with many character of the opposite sex at the same time. Or at least give an image that the main character is doing such.

Therefore, with the transformation, all these pure love stories suddenly turned into "ZOMG Harem"

The only Harem genre in the eroge section are only those that have more than 1 heroines ending up with the main male character or vice versa.

Also just because the story is 1 to 1, does not mean the story is boring. Some of the best works are :

The Voices of a Distant Star
Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora - looking up at the half-moon

oh and i can't really comment on the Ichigo 100% I haven't watch, or read it yet.

------------------------------------------------

You guys do have the right to think whatever you like and I am not trying to change anything here. Nor that I can for the matter, but I just want to get this out here. So that I feel better. It is a rant section afterall XD

@Pedro and Novo, if you can find an ending to the Anime of Love Hina where Naru and Keitaro were together, and there goes the end. I'll give you a cookie XD. I know for a fact that the anime did not have that, like the manga had it.

(yes it is a real curve ball, and you made me do it :P)

and if someone came to be an ass about EF, they can use the "anyone's wikipedia" definition and say, its a harem series.

I guess i'll forever stick with the originals where only the truth exist.

The rest is just you explaining why you are upset, I think, so I won't comment on this part.

Lastly, let's say Negi ends up with Asuna, do you agree that Negima is a harem, or do you NOT agree? While there is an adventure and fighting theme, there is often a lot talk about love and dating, it is definitely a harem to me. It is different from Evangelion because nowhere along the story is there a part devoted solely to romance.

I'll stop here in this discussion in case you bring up something else and we stray off the topic even more. We will just be going around in a circle if that happens. When you start to feel that you are forgetting what you are originally arguing for, that's a bad sign.

Ethane · 08-12-2009

the main problem here is everyone who has replied seems to really put a lot of value into what other people think even if there's a complete disagreement about it

which is just boggling if you think about it

The last series I really enjoyed was Rozen Maiden, and if even the western media at large considered the entire show to be a social commentary on NASCAR fans, that wouldn't diminish the enjoyment the show gave me one bit. If the rest of the world wants to label it as something I don't think it is, well hell, more power to them. It's just entertainment.

Noperative · 08-12-2009

Harem was originally an ancient term used to indicate the large number of wives a king had (my memory is a bit blurry here and I'm too lazy to google orz).
It should have remained ancient, but unfortunately some pioneering otaku decided to use their limited english to butcher some old word and completely change the meaning. Of course, this means that the actual line between a love polygon and a harem is practically invisible. So we really shouldn't be too concerned about the differences and rely on our own judgement (no offense).

My somewhat biased thoughts on harems:

Spoiler!

I could come up with a few more but you get the idea. These are just some general differences between a love polygon and a harem, but there are many exceptions.

weissritter · 08-12-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to flame you or anything. This post is meant to show you how your argument "may be" incorrect, at least to me, whether you believe me or not.

Ok i was trying to joke it off, but it didn't work, lets be calm and discusses this in a more serious manner. And I sincerely humbly ask you to be more serious and take what I already had written and read it a bit more thoroughly, because this really bothers me up for over two sleepless nights. I am willing to spend time, thinking and spend countless hours searching and writing about this. Why can't I get some serious response?

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

You lost me. It seems like you are just arguing for the sake of an argument now, no offense. And I'm very sorry. Most of your points are irrelevant. My definition from the post above is: "By definition, harem includes all romance series where two girls are interested in one guy (or vice versa) and they can be one-way relationship. "

...

This is a poor attempt to disprove my points. The term "harem" used in anime/manga and whatnot is an informal term. It is a slang. This "informal" definition does not exist in an actual dictionary. I chose the definition from a wiki because it is the most reliable out of all sources possible, at least to me.

...

The bits about your professor is a little irrelevant. We are not writing a 30-page research paper right now. Using the wiki may be a taboo in a college paper, but it is NOT when you are using it informally in a forum such as this. Likewise, you wouldn't say the wiki is a bad source when you are quoting it inside of a mmo, would you? Of course not. Because you are not using the source in a formal fashion. Same for the citation signs, we are not writing a college paper right now (this made me laugh, no offense).

I am arguing at the beginning because I would like to say that using wiki, to prove something isn't reliable because I can go in there change it and you can have a new definition by quoting from it. Am I right on this one?

Therefore, normally even when it is an MMO forum or whatever, I personally would not use a wiki unless it is the last source there is. It isn't about formality. It is about quality and the information there. I gave the original link with how a student hoaxed a quote for a reason.

I was hoping that you might use other sources as information to show me about this term. I want to see where you got the "By definition, harem includes all romance series where two girls are interested in one guy (or vice versa) and they can be one-way relationship. " From besides the english part of the wiki.

But I guess you had mistaken from what I wrote. I honestly was not trying to be mean or flame or instigate anything. Was just trying to ask for a more professional response on your part because your original response seems neutral and yet, not gaining me any satisfaction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

Things like Evangelion do not count because they are NOT romance-driven series. Same for gundam, Haruhi and the rest of the examples you tried to show.

You lost me because you strayed away from the original topic. Originally, and if I'm not mistaken, you were saying how if one guy ends up with one girl in the end, it is not a harem. This is the original topic. This is what your opening post is about. And you didn't talk about it in your most recent post. You stray off somewhere.

Ok when you say it does not count, you used the english version of the wiki or somewhere else? If you turn it to the japanese page. You can see that no where on the page is Romance genre a requirement. It just says for definition that :

"少数の男性キャラクターに対し多数の女性キャラクターが対置され、多くの場合は大勢の女性キャラが一人の男性に対し好意を抱く。また主人公はハーレムを構成する女性キャラクターに対して平等に接することも多い。 "

(Small amount of male character vs, many female character, In many cases most of the girls have an love interest in the male character. Also to make an Harem, the main character usually comes in contact equally with each of the girls.)

ハーレム系作品（ - けいさくひん）とは、一人または少数の男性キャラクターに対し、数多くの女性キャラクターが対置されている設定のフィクション作品を指す

From the opening of the page, "Harem genre refers to : fictional works that has one person or small amount of guys vs, lots of female character type of setting.

You can translate it if you want. But romance is not in there. And I did not modify the wiki.

ãƒãƒ¼ãƒ¬ãƒ*ç³»ä½œå“ - Wikipedia

So shouldn't japanese wiki have a more "valid" definition since it originate from japan? Or should we say the english wiki is more valid then the japanese one?

Then what about the chinese version, it does not contain the term "romance" is require to be harem. "後宮型作品是虛構作品的一種類型，指的是在設定上偏男性向，且只有一位男主角或百合控的女主角或少數的男性角色被数位甚至數十位美女或美少女包圍的作品。"

It basically means that harem works are works that have the main character having many females character around the main character.

So does that mean that the chinese got the definition of harem all wrong?

Again the war and flaw of the wikis...

This definition here is some how being twisted by each individual that writes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

You know how slangs are like. There can be multiple definitions because there is no "one" set-definition. It depends on the person's interpretation.

Yes I agree with you on this one, which is why I said there should be a little something to differentiate. But because the definition itself is inconsistent. Then each person's interpretation varies greatly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

As proven above, these are not harems because they are not romance-driven, at least according to my definition above; ie: their plots do not revolve around romance. I know for a fact that Haruhi, Gundam and Evangelion are not. I'm not sure about the rest because I've never seen or read them.

Again you can modify the japanese wiki, Haruhi is listed there.

主な作品 [編集]

* 天地無用!
* いちご100%
* 桜蘭高校ホスト部（逆ハーレム系）
* 恋姫†無双
* 涼宮ハルヒシリーズ
* To LOVEる -とらぶる-
* ラブひな
* ロザリオとバンパイア
* ハヤテのごとく

Image link incase someone decides to modify the wiki within the next i don't know how long
http://i32.tinypic.com/vd0cgh.jpg

So do you see why I said what I said? the quality and reliability of the wikis.
Again I did not put it on there.

And putting gundam and Haruhi as harem would upset people, I know that for a fact, but hey it is listed in the wiki. And people are relying on it.

PS: Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu and To Aru Majutsu no Index are from part of the chinese wiki definition on harem genre

PS2: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=6134 Higurashi no Naku Koroni series labeled as harem on anime news network.

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

The rest is just you explaining why you are upset, I think, so I won't comment on this part.

Lastly, let's say Negi ends up with Asuna, do you agree that Negima is a harem, or do you NOT agree? While there is an adventure and fighting theme, there is often a lot talk about love and dating, it is definitely a harem to me. It is different from Evangelion because nowhere along the story is there a part devoted solely to romance.

I'll stop here in this discussion in case you bring up something else and we stray off the topic even more. We will just be going around in a circle if that happens. When you start to feel that you are forgetting what you are originally arguing for, that's a bad sign.

We kind of did stray off, I agree with you. But right now unless we get the definition clear up, most of the response becomes invalid. Because most everything we discuss here revolves around this "definition" of harem genre.

Because if we can't even differentiate, what is and what is not, then everything falls apart, no?

Also Part of the big lump that you put down as why i am upset. The part about how game transfer into anime, becomes an harem setting a point that I am making. If the predecessor is not, why should the successor be?

Lyn · 08-12-2009

Interesting article here for your perusal: What is a Harem Anime? « いつもバカばかし

Its only a blog entry, so nothing factual, but notice how everyone thinks differently. Sometimes, its harder to put into words what something is than to just sense it with our mind.

Maybe harem can be like an umbrella term, with many subcategories branching from it? If you think of it like this:

1. You can have a harem where almost all or all of the female chars are romantically interested in the male lead. The male lead has to choose one of them in the end. Best example of this category would be "Shuffle!", "Princess Lover!" or "School Days". I personally would like to think of these series as "pure" harem.

(Havent seen Princess Lover! to the end, btw, but Ive looked at the game, and the guy has a choice to marry + have sex with any of the girls)

2. Another category would be a harem where the male lead is surrounded by multiple female chars, but only one of the females is seriously interested in the male. In my mind "Love Hina", "Zero no Tsukaima" (trilogy) or "Myself; Yourself" are fine examples of this. Perhaps an added element in this second subcategory would be the male lead getting involved in various sexually compromising situations with the other female chars, even though he has no romantic link with any of them in the grand scheme of things. Typical examples include the guy walking in on a girl while she is in the bath, the girl tripping and falling on top of the guy and showing her panties, the girl accidentally kissing the guy, the guy seeing the girl naked or in her undies in any other comical situation, etc. The list goes on. A third element could be the male lead having various "ecchi" thoughts or sexual fantasies of any girl other than his intended love interest, but again, not being romantically involved with them in the end. Examples: Sana staring at Aoi's breasts in "Myself; Yourself", Saito in "Tsukaima" fantasizing about various girls' chest size, etc.

3. A third category, that some people might argue for, but what I would term "pseudo harem": Male lead being incidentally surrounded by multiple female chars, with little romantic or sexual interaction between them. Into this last category we could have series like Haruhi, Evangelion, that arent even romance-driven in the least, but some people might insist on them being a "harem" because theres the incidence of one guy + many girls. Not really harem in my eyes, but its there. IMO, this third category is where we draw the line. I personally wouldnt label any series here as harem simply because its pointless. Its perfectly fine if the number of male and female characters in a story isnt even, if a girl happens to find herself in the company of guys more than girls, or vice versa.

By my definition, "harem" would more or less encompass all series that can fall into the first and second category, but not the third. As such, I dont view either "ef - a tale of memories." or "ef - a tale of melodies." as a harem.

An additional problem here is that some harem anime we're speaking of are based on a manga, whereas others are based on an eroge (hentai game). Producers of a series adapted from an eroge often choose to pair the male lead up with one of the girls. Obviously, a player of the game has the choice of navigating the male character to any girl of his choice, but in the anime, its already decided for the male lead whom he'll be paired up with. So, while some anime may not appear to be a "pure" harem, they actually are when you look at the game (e.g. Kanon). Consider also the relationship between fanservice and the harem genre as a whole. Is fanservice a necessary element in a harem? By precedent it seems to be suggested that the more fanservice and sexual comedy there is, the more likely viewers are going to treat it as a harem.

My 2 cent :v No need to get worked up over a definition, right? The boundaries of this genre seem to be entirely decided by the genre's very fans.

posu · 08-12-2009

I don't want to continue with this discussion because this topic is not so important, to me, that I feel I should spend much more time into it. (I mean, we are just arguing about what harem is or what harem is not. I don't even use this term that much.) Considering your post length, it takes me A LOT of time to generate a response. It's exhausting me. I can't forecast an end to this discussion either. To bluntly say, I can't commit to this discussion anymore. Some of the things you say are a little irrelevant to me, even though you may not think that way. I won't list them in case they provoke you into further discussion. Let's just say our opinions differ more than each of us expected. The other thing is, I don't entirely understand what you are saying sometimes. For things you say that I don't understand, I can't respond to them. One final thing, I won't question the accuracy of your Japanese translation, but I have to disregard your Japanese citation solely because I cannot read that much Japanese.

From your recent response, "I think" I know what you are trying to say, it seems my definition does not match the one from the wiki. I must have mixed either my definition or some other definition into the wiki definition. Looking back, you may have tried to indirectly point that out in Post #9.

Anyway, even this post must have took me 20-60min to write. I didn't keep track but post #10 must have took me hours to write. Again, I can't keep up. This discussion exhausts me. I sincerely apologize for so selfishly ending our part of the discussion.

SlowBro · 08-12-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by usopsama

I don't want to continue with this discussion because this topic is not so important, to me, that I feel I should spend much more time into it. (I mean, we are just arguing about what harem is or what harem is not. I don't even use this term that much.) Considering your post length, it takes me A LOT of time to generate a response. It's exhausting me. I can't forecast an end to this discussion either. To bluntly say, I can't commit to this discussion anymore. Some of the things you say are a little irrelevant to me, even though you may not think that way. I won't list them in case they provoke you into further discussion. Let's just say our opinions differ more than each of us expected. The other thing is, I don't entirely understand what you are saying sometimes. For things you say that I don't understand, I can't respond to them. One final thing, I won't question the accuracy of your Japanese translation, but I have to disregard your Japanese citation solely because I cannot read that much Japanese.

From your recent response, "I think" I know what you are trying to say, it seems my definition does not match the one from the wiki. I must have mixed either my definition or some other definition into the wiki definition. Looking back, you may have tried to indirectly point that out in Post #9.

Anyway, even this post must have took me 20-60min to write. I didn't keep track but post #10 must have took me hours to write. Again, I can't keep up. This discussion exhausts me. I sincerely apologize for so selfishly ending our part of the discussion.

Walls of text should be countered with short posts. Practise succinctness and you will always win endurance matches.

WhatThePho · 08-12-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongo

Walls of text should be countered with short posts. Practise succinctness and you will always win endurance matches.

ie.

Harem has 381270392814320191438 sex craving chicks
Romance has maybe.. 5 at most.

Vegeance · 08-12-2009

It's not so much that people can't comprehend that romance animes do not equate to harem animes but rather so that romance animes are generally classified as harem animes by their broad definitions of harem. It seems as though in your intial post it seems that harem is considered a deragatory term to animes to you and that you are upset over the fact that people classify romance animes as harem animes also and that you decline to accept this injustice classification because their interpretation seems to be arbitarily wrong to you.

Terms eventually evolve and broaden out, so it can be as specefic as what Novocaine stated earlier or it could be as general as ''2 females surrounding 1 guy''.

''Because if we can't even differentiate, what is and what is not, then everything falls apart, no?''

To some extent, it may cause confusion and misuage, but nothing really falls apart if some person decided in their mind that haruhi or otherwise would be considered as harem. That's the problem with words/jargon/terminology anyways, they are imperfect in communicating the concepts and ideas that others don't share.

SlowBro · 08-12-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegeance

It's not so much that people can't comprehend that romance animes do not equate to harem animes but rather so that romance animes are generally classified as harem animes by their broad definitions of harem. It seems as though in your intial post it seems that harem is considered a deragatory term to animes to you and that you are upset over the fact that people classify romance animes as harem animes also and that you decline to accept this injustice classification because their interpretation seems to be arbitarily wrong to you.

You're mad about perceived misrepresentation of romance animus.

Terms eventually evolve and broaden out, so it can be as specefic as what Novocaine stated earlier or it could be as general as ''2 females surrounding 1 guy''.

Everyone has their own idea of what harem means.

''Because if we can't even differentiate, what is and what is not, then everything falls apart, no?''

To some extent, it may cause confusion and misuage, but nothing really falls apart if some person decided in their mind that haruhi or otherwise would be considered as harem. That's the problem with words/jargon/terminology anyways, they are imperfect in communicating the concepts and ideas that others don't share.

Harem is a word that was created by man so it has no proper place in man's diction. We must communicate in layman's terms and abandon all unnecessary complexity to get the point across.

I translated some of what you said please correct me if I'm wrong ;o;

weissritter · 08-12-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocaine

Interesting article here for your perusal: What is a Harem Anime? « いつもバカばかし

Its only a blog entry, so nothing factual, but notice how everyone thinks differently. Sometimes, its harder to put into words what something is than to just sense it with our mind.

Maybe harem can be like an umbrella term, with many subcategories branching from it? If you think of it like this:

1. You can have a harem where almost all or all of the female chars are romantically interested in the male lead. The male lead has to choose one of them in the end. Best example of this category would be "Shuffle!", "Princess Lover!" or "School Days". I personally would like to think of these series as "pure" harem.

(Havent seen Princess Lover! to the end, btw, but Ive looked at the game, and the guy has a choice to marry + have sex with any of the girls)

2. Another category would be a harem where the male lead is surrounded by multiple female chars, but only one of the females is seriously interested in the male. In my mind "Love Hina", "Zero no Tsukaima" (trilogy) or "Myself; Yourself" are fine examples of this. Perhaps an added element in this second subcategory would be the male lead getting involved in various sexually compromising situations with the other female chars, even though he has no romantic link with any of them in the grand scheme of things. Typical examples include the guy walking in on a girl while she is in the bath, the girl tripping and falling on top of the guy and showing her panties, the girl accidentally kissing the guy, the guy seeing the girl naked or in her undies in any other comical situation, etc. The list goes on. A third element could be the male lead having various "ecchi" thoughts or sexual fantasies of any girl other than his intended love interest, but again, not being romantically involved with them in the end. Examples: Sana staring at Aoi's breasts in "Myself; Yourself", Saito in "Tsukaima" fantasizing about various girls' chest size, etc.

3. A third category, that some people might argue for, but what I would term "pseudo harem": Male lead being incidentally surrounded by multiple female chars, with little romantic or sexual interaction between them. Into this last category we could have series like Haruhi, Evangelion, that arent even romance-driven in the least, but some people might insist on them being a "harem" because theres the incidence of one guy + many girls. Not really harem in my eyes, but its there. IMO, this third category is where we draw the line. I personally wouldnt label any series here as harem simply because its pointless. Its perfectly fine if the number of male and female characters in a story isnt even, if a girl happens to find herself in the company of guys more than girls, or vice versa.

By my definition, "harem" would more or less encompass all series that can fall into the first and second category, but not the third. As such, I dont view either "ef - a tale of memories." or "ef - a tale of melodies." as a harem.

An additional problem here is that some harem anime we're speaking of are based on a manga, whereas others are based on an eroge (hentai game). Producers of a series adapted from an eroge often choose to pair the male lead up with one of the girls. Obviously, a player of the game has the choice of navigating the male character to any girl of his choice, but in the anime, its already decided for the male lead whom he'll be paired up with. So, while some anime may not appear to be a "pure" harem, they actually are when you look at the game (e.g. Kanon). Consider also the relationship between fanservice and the harem genre as a whole. Is fanservice a necessary element in a harem? By precedent it seems to be suggested that the more fanservice and sexual comedy there is, the more likely viewers are going to treat it as a harem.

My 2 cent :v No need to get worked up over a definition, right? The boundaries of this genre seem to be entirely decided by the genre's very fans.

I sincerely thank you for everyone's response whether it may be contributing or just spam.

I guess I am pretty much had it out and many already laughing at my silly post.

Ok, @Novo I pretty much agree with what you say, and hopefully harem genre can be better polish without having have to included 90% of all animes which is just... weird.

Ok the end.

Oh and have a cookie *Tosses one at the screen*