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12-13-2008   #1 (permalink)
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Default I just don't understand What Sieg is there for [Lunia]

I write this in regards to staging and raiding, so refrain from telling me the virtues of Sieg in pvp.

Had an epiphany today. I was doing a lower Jahil raid with my Eir, and ended up being the one to stay behind and protect it while the rest went to Efreet. My other partner was a Sieg. If you know what the raid is, you can probably guess the result. (hint: my build at the time was FS-ey)

I think I was hoodwinked (I blame you, Skiegh) when I decided to close my "SiegFails" guild. I was wooed by the performance of one, and thought "Golly, maybe it's more about the way you play Sieg than Sieg himself." So, so wrong.

As far as I can tell, here is what's good about in terms of what he contributes to a party Sieg:

+ Combos!
+ Minimal healing ala Fortitude
+ Provoke

But really, I don't know what makes Sieg's combos in particular so special. Heck, I combo better than most Siegs. Tias and Dainns seem to do just as much damage as he does, if not more with combos. And even though Limes and Dacys can't do much in that area, still their overall damage makes up for it.

The healing is meh. I just put in up there to include the 1% of Siegs that actually use that as a buff.

As for provoke, the inclusion of hitstun and Dacy has pretty much killed its usefulness. Tack that on to most Siegs not even putting it in their builds/knowing how to do it period, and you get a skill that's about as useful as an FS Dacy. (Just kidding. I'd prefer an FS Dacy to Sieg any day)

So I guess I'm not seeing what's in any way likable about Sieg, besides his likeness to Cloud/Dante/Ichigo, etc. Does he secretly increase the amount of money or experience found in a stage? Do bosses get their HP halved in his presence? Increased item drop rate? I am blind; help me see the value of Sieg.

Mini-rant: Did a cobolt raid today. Was the only one to get to adamans without losing all my lives. Also was the only one who knew how to trap. If I'm an example of one of the 'upper' players in Lunia, we're screwed.
 
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12-13-2008   #2 (permalink)
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party with me or zero and we'll change the way you think.

edit: nevermind, it's not even worth going that far, if you still feel the need to trap adamans...rofl.
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12-13-2008   #3 (permalink)
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Note the difference between non-experienced Sieg players and experienced Sieg players.

And also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by flsg
so now glitching is considered as a pro, necessary and a good way of playing?
 
12-13-2008   #4 (permalink)
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Well, you'll be happy to know that there are plenty of Siegs that are better than me. So if you thought I was good than you'll be happy to know I am far from great.

As I said in response to this before, Sieg is the easiest character to suck with when it comes to stages. (Maybe Eir too) I can't argue the fact that most Siegs do in-fact suck. I've grouped with plenty of bad players however and it is far from a Sieg only trait. I've been in a cobalt raid so bad that I just killed myself so I didn't have to deal with them anymore. (I know, unprofessional of me but you would of wanted to die too if you were me)

Siegs skills are useful and they do stand as being some of the best for killing a small number of enemies. Which in a raid, is very useful. You are very often put against elite enemies and single target damage is very useful.

Provoke's usefulness is I guess something only someone who has played a Sieg for a long time can really appreciate. It's way more versatile than broken bamboo during an active raid run and it can speed up raids if it's used correctly. Having an enemy attack in the opposite direction of you is great against the enemies that all have counters now. (Those big magma beasts are a good example.) It's also great for saving lives, which is the most prominent use for it. If someone or your whole party is getting pummeled, cast provoke and go to the opposite side. Sure, you probably won't last too long but this is where Sieg's excellent defense comes in..

Play dead, an instant drop to the ground which allows for a 3 second or so evasion of most attacks. Counter, a .1 second cast that can deflect damage for a brief moment, enough to deflect and change positions. Magic defense, complete invulnerability to magic attacks, if you want to see how godly it is, go see a Sieg use it against the adamans; complete invulnerability to every attack they have including their fists. They also have side step which I think of as a great way to get around attacks quickly.

So, a good Sieg can keep all damage in his direction and still remain alive and doing damage. So yes, Provoke is nothing but useful if used correctly.

This is like a thread that I wanted to make at one point but I am putting it here as an example:

Onto something I've been wanting to say for awhile... Comboing does not a good Sieg make! Every Sieg and even most classes should know how to combo, it's basic. However, depending completely upon it is a waste of time and it is not just used for yourself and this is something I was this close [] to making a thread on... team combos.

I combo not just to do more damage for my skills but others as well. I put frequent opportunities into my combos for other players to hit with a skill for much more damage than the skill provides. I think that team combos are the best form of teamwork. I have been in parties where everyone ruined my combos trying to combo off them but I have also been with people who have just known exactly when to attack off my combo. The damage output on aired targets is such a huge increase that I believe that it is nearly required to keep enemies in the air so large damage attacks can really show their stuff.

If I can toss out an easy Sieg to Sieg example, I get a lot of Siegs that combo off something as simple as >>AS Whirling sword. They use whirling sword and sometimes another Sieg will use it. It's so satisfying to create this vortex of increased damage. 170, 180, 220, 283, 366, 434, 532, 555, 543 and after all that, every Sieg in that can cancel whirling and continue off it, I love it.

This is something I've been wanting to see for a long time now and I know it would require some actual planning and if anyone feels up to doing it for fun, go nuts. I want to see 4 Dainns in a room like one of the ones in upper, each take a corner and in a sequence of one second apart, use red fire dragon into the center of the room. It would be such a satisfying combo and it would actually make red fire dragon's pitiful damage worthwhile as well as being quite the spectacle. (Get a Sieg to voke enemies to the center if you can't handle aggro)

I got umm... off topic. Anyways, a lot of people suck, don't take it out on a class. Siegs are just easier to see suck. (I saw a level 60 doing A spam for half of a raid, I cried.)

I frequently go to PF and I enjoy how many questions I get for learning how to combo and such. Seeing people in PF is a relief to me because it means they want to learn and learning to PvP is a great way to learn how to evade damage in PvE.

Last edited by Skiegh; 12-13-2008 at 03:39 PM.
 
12-13-2008   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
nevermind, it's not even worth going that far, if you still feel the need to trap adamans...rofl.
Must not party randoms too much.

Quote:
so now glitching is considered as a pro, necessary and a good way of playing?
Find me someone who can trap all three adamans, and I'll gladly refer to him as being pro. Necessary I dunno; I don't like that word when it comes to discussions like these.

Guy 1: Why are we doing upper jahil with no healers?
Guy 2: Well you don't need them, they aren't necessary. Dodging and pots, dude.

Really no one 'need's anything. There's just stuff that makes it go smoother, and stuff that doesn't.

If it can help the party win or make the game go faster, I'd say glitching is 'good'. Well, unless the GM's decide to make it a ban-able offense or something. I guess glitching for random parties is kinda a catch 22. You're fairly certain they won't win without special help, but their lack of experience (game-wise, not level-wise) probably means they don't know how to do it anyway.

Quote:
Well, you'll be happy to know that there are plenty of Siegs that are better than me. So if you thought I was good than you'll be happy to know I am far from great.
Where are they hiding? Probably in those damned AIDS-infested pvp rooms, no doubt. Or just their own guilds, sticking to places where "the elite meet to greet". I need to find me one of those.

As for single-target damage, I think Tia can do that just as well as Sieg, if not more so. And she has TBT, to boot. All that leaves to Sieg in terms of uniqueness is provoke. Suppose I'll have to see it used properly, as you've described, to know for sure.

I really like the idea of team combos too, though in my case most of them were lucky A spams against a wall, with backdashing in-between. If we all spam our attacks fast as possible, the mob is bound to stay airborne. But I wouldn't get your hopes up; the general mindset for these kinds of things is: Everyone does their own thing. If everyone does their own thing well, we can salvage a win. That foursome red dragon thing would be pretty neat, though. If only everyone were as synchronized.
 
12-13-2008   #6 (permalink)
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Hmm, I didn't play my Tia for very long but she is a close combat fighter like Sieg and is comparable in a lot of ways. She does indeed do a lot of damage to single targets but if we are talking strict 1v1 boss-type of monster damage. I think a Sieg would win due to tornadoes which at level 4, packs a lot of damage while you can still continue to attack. If we want to go at max level, IH is the strongest single target skill in the game by a good margin.(Correct me if I am wrong, unreleased characters don't count)

Sieg also has D-fist which is comparable to back stab only with a larger cone area, collision damage and a longer cooldown. (Eats more MP too I think) With rage on, Siegs critical more than Tias and at max level a D-fist critical is 1,500+ fresh which is a lot of damage for how quick it is performed.

I mean, keep in mind, I don't even have a stage Sieg (I'm a hybrid). Wind kick and max FDS I think would be amazingly good skills for PvE. They do great damage and can be easily comboed into near anything. FDS I imagine would do more damage than D-fist at max level but it eats through MP like crazy. I would recommend a high int build with a set bonus for MP recovery to have max FDS.

No question on TBT though, that skill is invaluable for 60+ endeavors. Reusing 60+ skills instantly can really speed up a stage.

Tias are strong though and I do enjoy having them in a party but I prefer my Sieg. (I might of mained Tia if she was around when I started as I do usually prefer the quick, stealthy characters)

I don't need to comment anymore on my stand with glitches so moving on...

My advice really is to stop eying every Sieg you see to look for mistakes. If I observed even the best players in the game, I bet I could pinpoint quite a lot of places where they made mistakes and big mistakes are far more common than little ones even for high-level (Not character level) players.

Overall, Lunia is pretty balanced at the moment. I even feel that Dacys aren't quite as overpowered as I thought, though I do still think they need all their glitches fixed and a little nerf. (Lime got nerfed, nerf the Dacy now) Every class has a basic role and they generally do it pretty well.

So when you see a bad Sieg in a party, you are seeing a bad player while the class should be untouched by the coincidence that you find more bad Siegs than anything else.

Also, I can see your pain. Being an Eir means you are observing your party members more than you are yourself. You are dependent on your team mates to do what you are too busy to do and that is to do damage.
 

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