Let me start this thread by saying that I believe in a higher power. I believe in a higher power that believes that people should be happy as long as the happiness does not sacrifice or harm other people's emotional and physical well being in any way or form. I have absolutely nothing against any religion in itself, and I also believe that religion can help you to find peace in a world where it is hard to find. Before you ask, I am not homosexual myself.
I just don't understand some religious fanatics. I can respect your beliefs if you can respect mine. Why do some of these people degrade a certain group of people with certain sexual preferences with signs and blatant hatred that state that they'll burn in hell forever and that it is wrong (among many other things)? I can understand that certain aspects of your belief indeed state that certain partnerships is indeed wrong and you'll be punished if you indulge, but is it really necessary for certain fanatics to throw hatred right in the faces of the 'sinners'?
I'll never understand why some people can't just let other people be. You can have your beliefs, you have every right to. It is just that it is crossing the line when certain types of people try to control the lives of others that have nothing to do with them, it is even worse when these certain type of people try to control their own children in this manner.
If the beliefs of these fanatics happen to be 100% true, just let other people lead their lives in peace. Let them rot in hell for being a 'sinner'. After all, you'll be going into heaven. Why should they matter? Why are some fanatics trying to save them? To be honest, I really don't think that is the reason at all. The way I see it, certain fanatics are just trying to use religion as an excuse to push hatred in the way of people that lead certain lifestyles that certain fanatics find to be disgusting, and they can't handle the emotions they feel.
In my belief system, these types of religious fanatic people are evil. They are using words in a manner designed to purposely hurt other people in a very negative way. In my belief system, these certain types of fanatics will be sent to a very dark and lonely until they are able to be accepting of everybody; regardless of race, sexual orientation, and beliefs.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, but I do get a sense of where their hatred stems from. (Usually) for religious groups, it's religion > science. Society in our recent decades have discovered and debunked "homosexuality" to fit the biological viewpoint. That technically in an indirect way, is telling them some of their teachings/beliefs are all lies, which can be quite overwhelming. When you have something like that happen, people need to find something to hold on to, to keep them re-assured in a way(which may explain the active acts of hatred in groups). Or, they may completely shut off all kinds of logic and religion prevails.
I personally do not understand it at all. I can never understand why at all, regardless of how much effort I try to put myself in their shoes.
For the longest time, the question of "Why" has been my greatest weapon of reason against these people. I know you didn't state the specific religion, but I'm going to throw in an example. Keep in mind this is not always true and I am not trying to insult said religion in any way. I hope I do not offend anyone.
For example, I would go up to one of these people and ask them "Why is it a sin? Gays are people too." Immediately they recite LEVITICUS, reference the bible, not answer my direct question and I see the emotions clouding logic appear.
Honestly, I can never get a legitimate answer without the bible getting in the way.
Trust me Vith, if you are trying to understand too, I am just as hungry for the answer. I too long for an explanation. This is one of the things we can't find an exact answer to, just like your thread in the past about the universe. In time I do think we will find some kind of middle ground to meet the fanatics halfway. From there, hopefully full acceptance.
The way I see it, certain fanatics are just trying to use religion as an excuse to push hatred in the way of people that lead certain lifestyles that certain fanatics find to be disgusting, and they can't handle the emotions they feel.
I agree. I think we can also use the argument that they are insecure of their beliefs(due to how society is gradually progressing in more ways than one etc.)?
...it is even worse when these certain type of people try to control their own children in this manner.
Have you watched Prayers for Bobby by any chance? It is a wonderful movie.
It's because somebody or a group long time ago spread rumors about homosexual people are considered "bad people" or something like that. Some people love to hate over small things(I'm not referring to anyone). People are people, we will believe anything when we are young and carry it on even as adults.
I'm not saying people are dumb or ignorant, we get misguided sometimes, which I hope people wake up one day to see their flaws.
I have nothing against anybody and I don't mind homosexual people, but I hope you won't hate on people, because they disagree with you, that will be just drama(Ugh).
P.S. I love Chocobos!!! Especially the blue ones. Sorry, this topic seems way too serious.
They was a petition for gay marriage at my university. I was with a friend who was an atheist a year ago and then she became a Christian again as she went out with a Christian and was raised as a Christian.
Anyways I said something about there being nothing wrong with it if anything it would be great that people who clearly love each other are able to have recognition of that love. It would have sentimental value.
And I have met some homosexual couples, they are just like anyone else and like any couple with a healthy relationship that I know. They are devoted to their partner and look after each other.
She told me that it was detrimental to society, and that her opinion was not based on religious grounds. She said a bit more I do not remember what, all I remember is that is was far from convincing.
In terms of religion in general, I believe that each one has many positive aspects that allow their followers to become wonderful people, however I do not believe religion should be forced upon people as if it were the only way to think. I never liked the idea of scripture in public schools for that reason. When I told mum how boring it was she pulled me out.
And I do not have a religion just to let you know.
And just another thing...
Stem cell research and genetically modified stuff.
I can't understand what people see in religion. We live in a world where everything can be dumbed down to common sense, but some seem to lack it or just try to explain their petty existence with illogical writings that have been kept over time, instead of just living their lives and trying to be happy.
I shall now speak from the angle of a Christian on this subject. I'm far from a perfect follower but I still have enough love for it to speak for it.
It was never meant to be forced upon people who chose not to be Christian. It is utterly useless to force anyone who has no love for God to follow anything in the book. It benefits God nothing, it benefits Christians nothing, I'd even go as far as to say its counter-productive to the TRUE goal of christianity.
I believe most things christians should do should reflect the 9 fruits of the spirit: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
Therefore, with evidence from the bible itself. I, with confidence, can say that mistreating anyone, or making life harder for people because they do not follow his word is NOT right. As it goes against the fruits of peace,patience, and gentleness. There is none of this in oppression.
Jesus said that all of the commandments can be summed up in two: Love God and Love thy neighbor. Pretty much anything THE BIBLE ITSELF says is 'sin' is because it opposes either of these. Therefore, if one doesn't love God, there is no point in forcing the rules on them, and honestly pushes people AWAY from loving God, because instead of remembering the kindness of true Christians, they instead think of fanatics who care more for 'winning' a battle than what God ACTUALLY wants; to establish a relationship based on LOVE, not control, with as many people as possible. I'd dare say some act on pride rather than love for God. but God hates a proud look.
However, these bad, or misled, or well meaning but way off the mark, Christians will always be a problem for Christianity; even the bible itself states that there always has, and always will be false prophets, doctrines and those who add to and take away from his Word. Personally, i beware any who speak more from their head, or about politics, rather than focus on just how beautiful God is.
This is just an extra for those who wanted to know, after reading the commandment summary of love, why is sexuality an issue? I'm not a perfect study, but so far this is the understanding I have developed over the years.
First, I just wish to start off by saying, Man's definition of right and wrong will always be different from Christianity's; whereas man's definition of it is roughly 'what does and doesn't harm the well being of others'. Christianity's definition is again based on the two overarching commandments "Love God" and "Love thy neighbor".
When we look at the homosexuality issue regarding Christianity, the reason it is most likely declared a sin in the bible stems not because it breaks the commandment to love thy neighbor, but "Love God".
In the story of Adam and the garden of Eden, he started off alone... but God realizing that it was bad for him to be so, put Adam into a deep sleep and created Woman from his rib. Essentially, the man/woman relationship was God's first GIFT to humankind. Therefore, to do the opposite is a pretty hard way to reject that first gift. Such rejection can be seen as 'not love'.
I must point out that even Jesus is okay if a person chooses NOT to be with anyone, so its not a rule to make sure you hook up with someone... Just to not do the opposite of it.
Most people at this point now mention the natural biological urge that's been scientifically proven. I'm not a Christian to deny science. Some say 'why did God allow this urge to be possible?'
Well, was it REALLY God that allowed it? Adam and Eve was kicked out the garden because they were tempted into eating the fruit from the tree of Good and Evil. When they ate it, they instantly 'realized' they were naked and made clothes. Now the thing is; man started off 'innocent' but is now capable of evil after eating the fruit, and so were all generations. There's no true proof in what WAY the fruit affected them, if it was merely thoughts then... the knowledge would have stopped with them right? The power of the fruit could have even been reflected by a massive alteration to our genetics and behavior/instincts. I mean, if you're not Christian of course its silly to think a fruit could supernaturally rewrite DNA. but what are things such as time/space to a God if you believe otherwise? 7 days? Billions of years in fast forward.
In the end though, the point still stands, forcing someone to not do something does nothing to bring a soul closer to God, and any self sacrifice a person would make? (yes, to present oneself a living sacrifice does mean 'giving up' parts of yourself.) Must come of love and understanding or else it is pointless, and for the sake of the fruits of peace and patience, would rather that everyone be allowed to go their way by choice just as God has given all of us.
^ That's probably the best answer I've read, ever. You made everything understandable and actually applied biblical concepts, like how my old bible study teacher used to. I asked very difficult questions, outside of the box and he would apply the concepts we reviewed from the bible and it would all make sense.
Thank you! For the longest I was unsure if posting was a good idea... but seeing the animosity generated from those claming to be christian being oppressive has long worried me.
My heart goes out to anyone being treated badly, or living in a household being treated poorly for what they are. I've heard of children being virtually disowned or shipped to camps like broken goods and put through harsh work for the sake of 'cleansing'. There is nothing biblical about that. They deserve the love of a parent regardless and the story of the prodigal son is proof of that. Despite what that son did and ended up in, that father loved them regardless.
In addition, I've read that some Christians are saying the acceptance of homosexuality brought the wrath of God on America, through the latest hurricane. I just wanna say... uh. HECK NO. That is just the system of weather God has put in place taking its course. God DOES NOT DO MASS PUNISHMENT ANYMORE EVER SINCE JESUS DIED FOR SINS. It happened before during a different 'dispensation', God spoke directly from heavens, leaving people with no reason to think he isn't real, and society in general was a bit more primitive. (I need to look into that more to really say exactly how much simpler.)
After Jesus died, he essentially took the earthly punishments of breaking the word of god for all generations afterwards, hence why he was beaten so badly before cruxificion, to symbolize that. You never see God kill anyone like that past Jesus's death ASIDE from a particular case that stood in the way of establishing the church in Acts. but even that wasn't a mass punishment. They are inherently wrong to say that by everything I have read. All judgement. according to christianity, is reserved until the end of the world or one's death now.
I have read everything everybody has had to say, and I appreciate everybody posting what they had to say (especially Lime and Almora). I just wanted to point out again that I have absolutely nothing against any religion of any kind, just the certain religious fanatics that are insane.
I really respect you Lime, as you seem to have a really good balance of belief and understanding. It really is refreshing to know there are people like you in the world; if most people who are religious had the same exact mindset as you do, the world would indeed be a much better and beautiful place to live in. Thank you very much for being you.
Once again, I'd really like to thank everybody for posting what they had to say.
There's one more reason why people hold on to their religion so tightly...
It's because it has been hammered into them as part of their personality since they were kids. From parents, to teachers, to pastors, to the community, they all smother them with the idea that religion is good, and adhering to it is desirable, and going against it is bad. Overtime, this saturation becomes ingrained into their personality, that they cannot distinguish themselves from their beliefs.
To deny their beliefs means to deny themselves. And once you do that, you don't really know who you are anymore. For most people, that is a horrible thing. They rather live complacently without questioning it, instead of thinking about it and risk the realization that what they believe in may not be right, that they may not be good, that their whole life may be based on a lie.
If you bring up the topic of religion with people, they don't see it as a critique against the belief. They see it as a critique to themselves, their person, their life. And they get insulted easily. That's why debating with them about religion (unless they have an open mind and ready to question themselves) would be useless.
And if they see others not adhering to the beliefs they grew up with, they see it as an insult towards themselves. And they take it personally. That's why these fanatics won't just stand idly and let others live.
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