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riceburner4540 01-18-2008 04:43 AM

Eir PVP Tips
 
Just thought I'd share what I learned about Eir PvP. No, I'm not "pro", but I guess I don't completely suck either. Anyway, on to the tips. Beware, they sound pretty simple but in practice, it's a lot more difficult. Most of these are extremely situational. Keep in mind, I'm going to assume you already know basic combos and what not so none of that will be included in here. Eir is primarily a ranged character, evidenced by our terrible meleeing abilities and the fact that most of our spells practically scream, "get out of my face!".

Moving Around

Avoid corners. They get you killed a lot. Conversely, pressuring someone else into a corner will greatly increase the odds of you landing your next hit. Hitting and running isn't exactly my style, but if that's your game, then that's fine, though most people might not like fighting you much. I personally like to keep a short distance between myself and the opponent, just outside of a dash's range so I can try and maneuver/counter attack when the opponent makes a move. If they come at you, dash just outside of their range before countering with a skill, or melee if you're feeling brave. It is important to maintain a good amount of distance from your opponent so it's easier to hit them while making it more difficult for them to hit you, but by all means, when necessary, retreat for cooldown/mana. Just don't make it your ONLY tactic.

S+Space is your friend. At first, it looks like a crappy back dash, and using it, you're actually moving slower than you are normally dashing but that's only if you use it excessively. Correct usage of it lets you get a little bit more space while changing directions instead of having to stop outright to change directions. It can also be used to confuse your opponents but really, unless your opponent thinks a lot in PvP (I only know of a few), it probably won't work so, focusing on the first use mentioned...

Example: You're fighting a Dainn, stage is City. He's coming from the lower left side, you're on the lower right side. If you dash up, chances are he'll come up to you at a diagonal, most likely planning on intercepting you as you approach the north wall. Dash AS for Dainn has a ton of range, so it's no problem. What do you do? If you stop to turn and cast a spell, you might get hit or the Dainn might react to you stopping and adjust his movement patterns. From what I've noticed, as long as you stay moving, your opponents stay moving. If you stop to adjust directions or something, your opponent will re-evaluate their moves too. Most of this is done instinctually. Here's where S+Space comes into play. As you're dashing up and the Dainn is approaching dangerously close, you can do S+Space, holding down either 1 (numkey) or the left and down arrow keys after S but before Space mid-dash. Once you press Space, Eir will do a back dash to the upper right while turning to face your opponent. Firing off Moonlight Piece or Holy Spirit in this situation greatly increases the odds of scoring a hit. Basically, S+Space can be used whenever you need to change direction while gaining about a half dash's worth of space. Beware that your movement after it is slightly slower so if you use it, plan on making it worthwhile. This works especially well when someone is right behind you, approximately a half dash length away. I haven't quite perfected using this myself, but when I do use it correctly, it's awesome. Unfortunately, messing this up will get you killed, since if you mess up, Eir punches the ground and it can't be cancelled.

Melee

While Eir's melee attacks are pretty crappy in general, they do serve their purpose. First of all, it leads up to more damaging attacks (and in some cases, makes them guaranteed) and second, if you're capable of applying melee pressure, it helps to keep someone out of your face. Now, going head to head with melee will get you killed against any other job unless you're better than they are but if you can time your swings to your opponent's off swing (right after their swing's "damage" frames but before their next swing), you can land quite a few hits. If you're incapable of doing any serious damage with melee attacks, I suggest you learn some ways otherwise your opponent will feel no regret at all for giving up first hits. If they know you can dish out some close range damage, they're more likely to stay at least some distance away. You can also use melee pressure to help you lead your opponent into a position that's more advantageous to you. It varies quite a bit depending on who you PvP, so just experiment a bit. You can also melee to interrupt someone's dash attack if they misjudge the distance or timing, but don't count on it. Best (and safest) way to melee as an Eir is by taking advantage of your opponent's sides and back. Combo them into corners whenever possible.

Spell Spamming

Is a no no. It's a huge waste of mana and chances of anything landing is probably pretty small unless your opponent brainlessly charges in from the front (which happens from time to time, even good players will do it occasionally).

Healer's favorite spammable spell, Moonlight Piece. Usually, this is used terribly by most Eirs. I find that it's far better to aim where you think someone will go (while they're in motion) rather than directly at them. It works best if they're about a dash and a half length away, so you can at least get the spell off safely without being cancelled. If you miss, you're probably screwed. If you find someone is able to dodge Pieces easily regardless of how you shoot/aim, then use Pieces at mid-long range (2-3 dash length). While it probably won't hit, it'll help you limit their movements so you can go and intercept them. The only time you should ever aim Moon Piece at someone directly is if you think they're about to use a skill or spell of their own, so it's a mind game. If they do as you predicted, Pieces hits. If not, they're probably gonna dodge it and get a free shot at you. It's a gamble.

Holy Spirit should be used at as close to point blank as possible, since anything further can be easily avoided. Again, it helps if you can predict where they'll be moving next, because a lot can happen in the .25 seconds it takes to cast. Also, consider using Spirit as a wake-up move if your opponent messes up a combo and is on top of your body or directly in front of you. Time it properly so you don't get hit out of casting it as you wake up. It's possible to get Spirit off if your opponent is about a three quarters to a dash length away and they're charging directly at you. If it's a half dash length away, chances are you'll get hit-cancelled out of Spirit. Use the S+Space maneuver.

Full Moon Bullet is basically like our D-Fist. It has a slow start up, but decent range and a lot of width. Unfortunately, the projectile's path is kind of unpredictable. Sometimes, it tracks beautifully and sometimes, it's kind of retarded. In any case, Full Moon Bullet has a good chance of hitting if someone is charging directly at you at approximately 2 dash lengths away. An alternative use would be to cast it at a screen's length away just as someone is using a skill to knock them down. If you want to catch someone who isn't charging at you with FMB, it should be about a dash's length away, if they're going perpendicular to the direction you're facing.

Sacred Wave's most important feature is that the opponent can be pushed/pulled depending on how you're facing. If you're facing your opponent, they get pushed away. If you're facing away from your opponent, they get pulled towards you. This is useful in determining your next course of action. You may want them closer or further depending on what you do next. If your "getaway" spells are on cooldown, Sacred Wave is also a good alternative as a wake up spell. It'll hit them and alter their positioning, giving you a better chance of getting out unscathed. Note that if you cast it at point blank or close to it, your opponent is guaranteed the next hit, so long as they don't mess up. As such, it's inadvisable to simply spam Sacred Wave at every opportunity. Try to keep them at Wave's maximum range. Siegs have a guaranteed counter to Sacred Wave. They can Provoke + dash AS after Wave, regardless of how/where you hit them, guaranteeing their next hit. To avoid this, time Wave during Provoke's cooldown or sacrifice getting combo'd once to deal 300 damage. I personally think it's ok to simply spam Wave if you know you're gonna be screwed regardless of what you do next. Might as well take out 300 more hp before you die. This happens particularly often if you get combo'd into a corner.

Tears of Goddess is a great spell. It's difficult to use in PvP, sure, but when used correctly, it's amazing. Best used to disrupt someone's wake-up or to knock someone down. Aim for wherever they stop (to change directions) in a dash or right as they're about to use a skill. If you want to hit smoeone in motion, aim just a little bit ahead of where they are so they dash into it. Tears can also be used after Holy Spirit against a wall for some extra damage. If done properly, you can dash cancel (slightly different from a half dash, >><>) to continue a melee combo, but it's incredibly difficult. You can also simply dash AS + skill if it helps to finish off your opponent.

Dodge is possibly one of our best spells. It has a myriad of uses, both offensively and defensively. Using Dodge on wake-up almost guarantees your safety if done wisely. Consider your opponent's position relative to your own. Dodge will usually make it so that they have to do two dashes to reach you, as dashing diagonally ends up with them eating a Dodge. You can also simply Dodge into someone to blow them up, but generally, it's best used after AA. Since Knights tend to Play Dead after AA (for fear of Sleep or whatever), Dodge is almost always guaranteed after it. Dainns can escape with Bitter Cold Breath. At the furthest of Eir's melee range, Dodge may not hit after AA, so as close as possible is best if you plan on using it this way. You can also use Dodge in mind games. Since good players tend to take advantage of whenever you mess up a combo, you can intentionally let them drop, turn, and use Dodge. If they take the bait, boom! Dodge has so many uses, it's difficult to list them all. Experiment and find your own ways, be creative.

Shout is primarily a defensive spell. If Spirit and FMB are on cooldown, you can use Shout to get someone out of your face. Usually, if someone is hit with it, they're disoriented for a brief second, which may be enough time to cast and land Moonlight Pieces. It can also be used to get people out of your face in wake up, as it can allow you to dash to the sides, adding more movement ability to your wake up game. It has far less range than Hand of Earth so it's not very good for cancelling other people's spells.

Wake-up Game
When you're knocked down, you can do several things to recover. You can tap a direction before you hit the ground or right as you hit the ground to dash away in that direction, you can press S or A to get back up, or you can simply lay there. S takes a little while to initiate but gives you lots of invincibility time, but also leaves you vulnerable afterwards and A gives you only a few frames of invincibility but it can also knock down opponents near you. In either case, you can dash away backwards in the middle of the animation to cancel it and move. Unfortunately, if you choose to stay down after being knocked over, there is no way to move sideways (unless you use Shout, more on that later).

During the A and S animation, you can also cancel it by using a skill. This is where Eir excels in her wake-up game. Eir has many skills to use during wake-up to prevent getting hit again. Sacred Wave, Dodge, Shout, and Holy Spirit are a few of them. Basically, if you get knocked down and your opponent is right in front of where you are, you can wake up + Holy Spirit or if they're to the side, you can wake up + Sacred Wave (medium distance) or wake up + Dodge (short distance) to get away safely. Shout can be used for wake-up if you need to either push your opponent away but Holy Spirit is on cooldown, or if you need to dash sideways AFTER you decided to stay laying down. Playing a good wake-up game is important to your survival but you have to think very fast, especially against Sieg and Dainn players since they can punish you for staying down.

One thing to keep in mind when deciding your wake-up action is that the direction you face as you get up will ALWAYS be the direction you got knocked up from regardless of how many times you're shifted or which direction you were facing before you got launched. If your opponent came at you from the right and launched you there, you will be facing right once you hit the ground. If they stay close in front of you after knocking you over, wake-up + Holy Spirit will almost always hit unless they expect it. If they're off to the side, wake-up + Dodge will probably get you away safely while wake-up + Sacred Wave (medium distance) will do that plus some damage though it's risky especially against knights. Don't bother using skills on wake-up unless you know it'll hit or help you get away safely. I often see people using wake-up + Pieces at long range, there's no point and it's a waste of mana. Simply standing up with A or S, then dashing away would work just as well.

Wake-up game also includes what to do when your opponent is downed. You can strategically place Moon Barrier and Dodge to control where your opponent moves. Against Siegs and other Eirs, you can field hit over their body. Sieg and Eir's wake-up attacks are slow enough for you to react to it to get away while giving you the potential to still score a hit but Dainn's has a massive radius so field hitting doesn't work too well against him on wake-up. You can also set traps. Good opponents always take advantage of your openings, most notably after missed spells. You can abuse this by setting traps. If, for example, an opponent is downed and you're fairly close by, you can cast Holy Spirit. If they get up, they get hit. Many good players will stay down until Spirit passes before using a dash AS into you during your cast delay. Knowing this, you can still cast Spirit to create the false opening, then just as Spirit passes over them and it's safe for them to move, you can use Dodge and land a hit. Good opponents tend to evade attacks really easily so as an Eir, your task would be to trick them into getting hit. Keep that in mind for your wake-up games. These are but a few suggestions, experiment and come up with other things to do.

Situational Strategies

Hate Bitter Cold Breath? I do too. Best way to avoid it? Get the hell out of there. If you don't have that option, for example, if you're in a corner, they're about a dash and a half length to the upper left away from you, you probably won't be able to clear it. In such a situation, just be prepared to get hit, but you can cast Holy Spirit right before you freeze. At the very least, they can't immediately dash AS into you. If Spirit is on cooldown, you can turn and use Dodge away. They can (and probably will) hit you with ranged skills but at least they can't hit you with a melee combo. The trick is to limit the damage you receive if you can't prevent it entirely. If you have Moon Bind to waste, you can also hit them with it, giving you a net bonus of 2.2 more secoonds to get away. Try to stay just out of range and retaliate with a spell for when their invincibility ends. Moon Fog works well. At the very least, they'll be slowed.

Play Dead can be countered with Dodge. It takes a lot of practice to time it properly and against really good players. I haven't quite mastered it yet myself, since a they tend to get up really quickly, but any time someone uses Play Dead, Dodge is guaranteed if you place it right on top of them (requires at least lvl 3 Dodge).

If you have Whirlwind Wave (nados) coming after you and you know you can't outrun it because of slow or whatever, try doing an S-Space, turning to face your pursuer, and fire off Spirit or Pieces. I mean you're gonna get hit anyway, might as well give them a more difficult time to follow up on it after you do get hit. Alternatively, you can use Dodge.

You may find yourself trapped in a corner with an Ice Barrier blocking you (damn dirty Wizards...). The important key here is to stay calm. The Wizard will most likely not- let you destroy the wall and will try to force you to burn up your skills and abilities so the best thing to do is nothing at all. You're pretty much screwed. First, while being pummeled, try to find a way out. Sometimes, you can squeeze through between the barrier and the stage's walls even though it doesn't look like it. Second, make sure you don't try to spam skills. You'll need them if the Wizard goes for the coup de grace (Meteor), in which case, let loose Pieces. If you find an opening between the barrage of spells, try using Light Shield and waiting it out but beware, Light Shield tends to be cancelled easily when you need it most.

That's it for now. I'll add more later when I come up with more stuff to stick in here. Maybe I'll edit the formatting, it'll probably look like a massive block of text right now...

Also, if you have any good Eir tactics or strategies against skilled Dainn or Sieg players, by all means, post them here. I'm also trying to learn more advanced comboing maneuvers myself, like comboing someone into a wall, shifting, going along side a wall, then away from a wall in one juggle. I can do the first two parts and the last part, but not the first two and the last in one juggle. If you have any idea how to pull this off, PM me or just whisper me in-game.

Credits: Myself and the people who kick my ass in PvP (you know who you are).

Edit: Added wake-up game section

Maiyu 01-18-2008 04:43 PM

Wow nice guide!
But for that corner situation...

I LOVE corners :"D

and skill spamming :D
(since all are level 1, i end up getting more mp even if i use every skill consecutivaly. using all the begginer skills take around 100 mp, but i gain it all back ...)

Fatkins 01-30-2008 11:25 PM

yay a decent pvp healer guide finally

and also, I know this is probably not going to be very useful - but are there any combos involving s+space? or is it possible to do a shift in a weird situation with s+space? or is halfdash and 994 (as well as all the other shifts) much more efficient?

riceburner4540 01-31-2008 02:27 PM

Other than the Sleep-Bind combo, there aren't really any others where you would use S+Space, and even in the Sleep-Bind combo, it's not necessary. I just dash away and turn when I do that combo, works just as well. In some situations, it works better since you can make tiny adjustments to position before firing off Moon Pieces to make sure it's a direct hit. You can't do that if you use S+Space.

As far as movement goes in combos, normal shifting and half dashing is pretty much all you need for basic combos. For advanced ones, you may need to learn 4 key shifts.

Lunar 01-31-2008 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceburner4540 (Post 134827)
Other than the Sleep-Bind combo, there aren't really any others where you would use S+Space, and even in the Sleep-Bind combo, it's not necessary. I just dash away and turn when I do that combo, works just as well. In some situations, it works better since you can make tiny adjustments to position before firing off Moon Pieces to make sure it's a direct hit. You can't do that if you use S+Space.

As far as movement goes in combos, normal shifting and half dashing is pretty much all you need for basic combos. For advanced ones, you may need to learn 4 key shifts.

the s+space in the combo is for the original zero error margin sleep bind (lvl 2 sleep)

riceburner4540 01-31-2008 03:17 PM

You can still dash away and turn with lvl 2 Sleep. You have no room for error if you choose to do it this way, Pieces must be cast the instant Fog comes out. There's actually an ever so slight margin of error for Fog > Pieces in the combo if you use S+Space.

Lunar 01-31-2008 03:24 PM

i think i tried that.. doesn't work cause u run too far and pieces doesn't hit before they wake up...
can't try anymore since i got lvl 3 sleep

riceburner4540 01-31-2008 03:50 PM

I never did S+Space, even with level 2 Sleep. It worked fine unless I messed up from being too slow.

Lunar 01-31-2008 03:51 PM

well i didn't see it.. who were u fighting..

riceburner4540 01-31-2008 03:57 PM

Zyris =).message too short, etc.

Lunar 01-31-2008 03:58 PM

he's a noob! noob goddess

imported_john 02-03-2008 06:17 PM

Naerie, could you expand a little more on the tears? how many hits is there in it? also, you do this to continue the combo instead of halfdashing

after spirit tears, assuming the opponent gets hit by the last hit (this is the part I wanted you to explain more on, I only seem to get them hit by it sometimes and I need help figuring out how to do it consistently), then dash AS shout (assuming you're facing west) then press 882 or 228 and AAAA will continue the combo.

Lunar 02-03-2008 06:29 PM

to get tears consistently its' just practice for range.

also.. i'd like to add that in ur pvp eir tips.. u'd like to say that playdead with dodge is guaranteed only if dodge is above lvl 3 i believe it was.. other than that.. we can stay down long enough to avoid extra dmg

riceburner4540 02-03-2008 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itzJOHN (Post 137584)
Naerie, could you expand a little more on the tears? how many hits is there in it? also, you do this to continue the combo instead of halfdashing

after spirit tears, assuming the opponent gets hit by the last hit (this is the part I wanted you to explain more on, I only seem to get them hit by it sometimes and I need help figuring out how to do it consistently), then dash AS shout (assuming you're facing west) then press 882 or 228 and AAAA will continue the combo.

You'll get used to the range if you do it enough. There's no real secret, just practice. It hits a max of 6 times, but on players, it's usually 3-5 if you aim it right. As for using Spirit, Tears, dash AS (assuming you have a wall) Shout, 882/228, yeah it works. You can also do 8862 or 2268, which is probably better. The thing is though, I'm still having trouble going from the wall to a diagonal away from the wall...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunar (Post 137589)
to get tears consistently its' just practice for range.

also.. i'd like to add that in ur pvp eir tips.. u'd like to say that playdead with dodge is guaranteed only if dodge is above lvl 3 i believe it was.. other than that.. we can stay down long enough to avoid extra dmg

Noted.

imported_john 02-03-2008 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatkins (Post 134527)
yay a decent pvp healer guide finally

and also, I know this is probably not going to be very useful - but are there any combos involving s+space? or is it possible to do a shift in a weird situation with s+space? or is halfdash and 994 (as well as all the other shifts) much more efficient?

there's a really impractical combo
facing east

AS S 7 space 8 AAAA etc.

but you'l be better off using a normal shift <_<

actually if you do

dash AS S cancel dash AS S cancel and manage to get the opponent high enough, then you could S (whatever direction) space (direction) AAAA etc. I've only did it once though, since dash AS S cancel is hard to get the opponent in the exact height as A S.

Naerie, what would the difference be between 8862 and 882? shouldn't it be 8823 if you're going to shift away from wall? I don't know, could you share your shift away from wall keys?

riceburner4540 02-03-2008 08:11 PM

Secret. Assuming you're going east into the wall, 8862 will make you dash north, walk a half step towards the wall, then turn to continue the juggle. It just gets you closer to the wall making the juggle away from the wall easier to accomplish.

Lunar 02-03-2008 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riceburner4540 (Post 137651)
Secret. Assuming you're going east into the wall, 8862 will make you dash north, walk a half step towards the wall, then turn to continue the juggle. It just gets you closer to the wall making the juggle away from the wall easier to accomplish.

so that's wut u meant.. i was confused too.. since it shouldn't be put into one command.. 8862 it's more like 88 hold 6 turn 2

riceburner4540 02-03-2008 08:14 PM

Well, you should input it as if it was one command, otherwise the opponent will drop. Really, you won't even see Eir make a step, she'll just move a couple pixels towards the wall.

imported_john 02-03-2008 08:22 PM

wouldn't 88621 work as well? assuming you have no space for an AAAA and need to get out of the wall right away. or maybe 8861. I'd have to try it when I get home but I have a feeling I'll just miss the swing.

Okay. This is the combo I'm talking about

juggle juggle until right distance from wall, then spirit, chain, tears, dash AS shout [(facing east) 882 AAAA dash AS dodge]

the things in the bracket is what I'd like to expand. I was thinking a shift away from the wall, and just do eir infi until all my skills are done with cd. rinse. repeat. help with the keys? specificaly how2shift away from wall

riceburner4540 02-03-2008 08:27 PM

It's impossible to do it unless you get close to the wall with 8862. You can't just 8861, your swing will miss completely. Even with 8862, you won't be close enough to the wall to shift away...you'd need to do 8862, then 22862 or 226(hold)2 until you're as close to the wall as possible, then while you're doing AA (1) AA...then from there, get really creative with shifts to realign yourself.


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