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riceburner4540 12-01-2007 09:33 PM

Cyssaria's Eir Skills: PvP Evaluation
 
Cyssaria was my first character, I had no idea what I was doing so while my original intention was to create a support character that could deal moderate damage, I ended up having a generally messed up build. Still, with a myriad of skills at my disposal, I could experiment and find out what worked best. This led me to create a new Eir built for the sole purpose of PvP. Here are the conclusions I've come to thus far on skills.

Primary Skills

Moonlight Piece

Pros: A great skill overall. Landing a direct hit from a moderate distance ensures maximum damage. Because this skill pushes back and does not launch, it is potentially one of the strongest standalone skills available to any class. The homing abilities of this skill allow you to use it to put your opponent in a disadvantageous position. Fast Cooldown.

Cons: As it does not launch your opponent, this skill will never kill an opponent outright. In battles with more skilled players, chances of landing a direct hit with Moonlight Piece is practically none (except in one instance, described later). I've once had a battle against a Sieg where I was able to predict where he would be, aimed pieces in that direction, and watched as he weaved THROUGH the Pieces unscathed.

Recommendation: 6-10 points

Full Moon Bullet

Pros: Relatively fast cast, far range, semi-homing capabilities and knockdown. Also deals a fair amount of damage on a solid hit if leveled up.

Cons: Damage potential is generally low since a majority of the time, a good opponent that is hit by Bullet will only be hit once. Bullet is also rather unpredictable, sometimes it'll go straight while your opponent is just off to the side while other times, it'll go completely sideways while your opponent is dashing just straight ahead. Slightly long cooldown.

Recommendation: 2 points

Moon Barrier

Pros: Creates a new target for homing spells to chase after. Also serves as an impassable barrier for opponents. You can use it on opponents who stay down if you manage to knock one into a corner to trap them there. Almost guarantees a kill. Probably wouldn't work more than 1 time on the same opponent. Great overall against Dainn's Ice Arrows, Fire Orb, and Fire Dragon's Heart and Eir's Moonlight Piece.

Cons: Mostly useless on Siegs. While it does attract Whirlwave, Siegs who use it will use it in such a way that you cannot prepare for it. The cast delay is such that it's difficult to have it cast in time safely by the time your opponent's attacks approach. This means it usually has to be cast in advance.

Recommendation: 3 points (max)

Moonlight Chain

Pros: Direct hits deal fair damage if you land all 8 shots. Can be cancelled using low mp skills (like Holy Shout). Good to use when you have an opponent trapped in a corner.

Cons: It's a channeling spell, you're standing still for the 3 seconds or so it takes to get off all 8 hits. Fairly hefty MP cost for a skill that's generally unreliable. Low range.

Recommendation: 0 points

Moon Bind

Pros: Fast cast, great damage at close range. By itself, it's a fairly useful skill if used properly. Best against Eirs, since they have practically no defense against it. Can also be used on Siegs or Dainns that have Play Dead or Bitter Cold Breath on cooldown. Team matches, Moon Bind can mean an instant KO if your team takes advantage of it.

Cons: Missing Moon Bind can be potentially devastating to you. Against Dainns and Siegs with BCB/Play Dead ready, Moon Bind might not work so well. Also, Moon Bind is mostly useless unless maxed. Long cooldown.

Recommendation: 4 points (max)

Moon Fog

Pros: Great damage, slow effect. Also cancellable into other skills, so it can be used as a bait spell to create a false opening to draw your opponents to you. You can then cancel it into something deadly, like Moonlight Piece. Usable after Moon Bind for added devastation.

Cons: Hefty MP cost, low additional damage with added points and a long cooldown.

Recommendation: 1 point

Judgment of God

-Reserved space for when I get it.

Holy Shout

Pros: Fast cast, easily dash cancellable, long range knockback. It's like dash AS without needing to put yourself in harms way. Low mp cost, and fairly low cooldown. Also allows for odd maneuvers that are normally not possible from wake up attacks.

Cons: Not a real damage dealing spell. No real weaknesses other than that.

Recommendation: 1, or max if you can afford it

Dodge

Pros: Great offensive and defensive spell, decent damage. At higher levels, it can be used to start combos in addition to ending them. Using it on wake up will usually put you in a safe position. Hanging around a Dodge against melee happy opponents will dissuade them from comboing you.

Cons: Always on cooldown because you'll be using it so often.

Recommendation: 6-9 points (max)

Light of Purification

Pros: Gets rid of that pesky slow from Wizard spells and Knights' Provoke.

Cons: No real use other than the above

Recommendation: 1 point

Price of Sacrifice

Pros: Gets you some MP at the cost of HP. High level PvP battles as Eir are usually mana intensive and can be decided on mana alone, as your opponents will have so much hp that it'll be difficult to wear them down with your spells. Price may help turn the tide if your spells are done cooling down and you're confident you can land additional attacks.

Cons: Makes you lose HP. Very long cast time that is non-cancellable. Be wary of when you use it, otherwise you'll lose far more hp if your opponent catches you during the delay time.

Recommendation: 3 to 4 points

Tears of Goddess

Pros: Fast cast, great damage if most hits land. Usually a safe spell to use as it is dash cancellable. Works great in conjunction with Holy Shout or dash AS. Dash AS followed by Tears is almost impossible to evade. Can also be used to tack on extra damage at the end of a well placed Holy Spirit. Also used to punish early runners. Cast it where your opponent lands and if they plan on dashing away instantly, most of the hits will land.

Cons: 25 seconds is a long time in PvP. This spell seems to always be on cooldown when a perfect opportunity to use it presents itself. Takes practice to judge distance and angle to use it properly. Hefty mana cost.

Recommendation: As many points as you can spare

Holy Spirit

Pros: Possibly the best spell Eir has in PvP. As you'll be spending a lot of time in close quarters with your opponent, this spell will do a moderate amount of damage in addition to sending him into a wall, or at least across the screen. The cast time is extremely fast, so it can be mixed into standard melee attacks for a guaranteed direct hit. Also only 10 seconds for cooldown, which means this spell will be used constantly. Opponents should fear this spell, or at least be mildly irritated at how awesome it is. It's also skill cancellable, so should you miss, you can put yourself in a better position by cancelling the delay.

Cons: Relatively slow spell, so effective distance is close to medium range. Not exactly the most comfortable distance for Eir.

Recommendation: 8 points (max)

Sacred Wave

Pros: Fast cast, great damage. Can be used after SSA to quickly finish off an opponent low on health. Also, proper usage will guarantee your safety after casting. Sacred Wave has too many good uses to list, but you can use it on wake up to disrupt an opponent's next move, to cancel long delay attacks, or to stop an opponent's offense in team matches just long enough for a team mate to land a combo.

Cons: Other than a high MP cost and a long delay, this skill has no downsides if used properly. If used improperly, the after cast delay could get you killed.

Recommendation: 1 point (it deserves more, but it should be low on your priority list)

Other Skills

Sleep

Pros: Fast Cast, guarantees a direct, point blank hit from Moon Bind if used properly. Best used in conjunction with Moon Bind, otherwise the effects might not be as great. Can be used after standard melee hits without interruption. Invaluable in 1v1 situations.

Cons: Although the cast time is fast, the non-cancellable after cast delay is long. This means that the net sleep time where you can take action is very low. You cannot afford to make a mistake after casting sleep otherwise the spell is wasted. Also has little use in Team PvP unless you have incredible teamwork since team mates tend to unwarily knock your opponents out of sleep with weak attacks. Also has a very heavy MP cost as well as a long reuse timer. Don't expect to be able to cast it more than once per life.

Other Bless Skills

0 to everything else, they simply do not have enough utility to warrant points as you should be clawing for every point available as it is. The only one worth mentioning here is Light Shield, which deserves 1 point. It's basically our version of BCB or Play Dead.

Healing Skills

Of all the healing spells, the most obvious choice would be Light of Healing, due to the amount of HP you can potentially heal. In reality, against difficult opponents, the best healing spell to use would be Sunlight Heal. Difficult opponents will often force you to cancel Light of Healing after 1 heal. If you're lucky, you can get off a 2nd heal. Taking this into consideration and assuming you can only get off 1 heal, Sunlight is better for the MP cost. It is also better for Team PvP since Light's range is so small that you'll often be caught in attacks intended for the person you're trying to heal. Sunlight is not dash cancellable, however, and must be skill cancelled. Beads may be useful in team matches, but will unfortunately make you vulnerable to attacks as it has an uncancellable after cast delay. Emergency Heal deserves a point, as its purpose is the same as in stages.

Note: While I'm a firm believer that all Eir skills, including Bless and Healing skills are fair game in PvP, not all people will agree. Check first with your opponent if he has any issues with you using Healing skills. If he does, either refrain from using them or find a different opponent to fight.

Passive Abilities

Health Increase

Pros: More HP. Having HP means you can survive longer.

Cons: No real cons, other than costing skill points.

Recommendation: Max

Mana Increase

Pros: More MP. Having more MP means you can stay in the game longer.

Cons: No real cons, again, other than costing skill points.

Recommendation: As many points as you can afford

Mana Recovery

Pros: Regens mana while you're fighting. For a PvP Eir, this is more important than Mana Increase. If you can afford the points, get both. Otherwise, get this one only.

Cons: No real cons, other than costing skill points.

Recommendation: Max

Concentration

Pros: Grants a small chance of having a spell cost half the required MP to cast.

Cons: None, really, other than using up skill points. Unfortunately, the utility of the skill isn't high enough to warrant any skill points at all since the chance of Concentration kicking in is so low.

Deadly Magic Blow

Pros: Grants a small chance of having a spell deal critical (1.5x) damage.

Cons: Again, none, other than skill points cost. The chance of effect is very low, however, so it's incredibly unreliable.

Recommendation: 0, 1 point(s).

darkdestiny 12-01-2007 10:12 PM

Nice guide =D. It generally has most if not all of the PvP information I have and basically the same opinions O_o.

riceburner4540 12-15-2007 01:45 AM

It saddens me that there's so little interest in PvP build Eirs. Anyway, I thought I'd mention that some of the other Lunia versions have skills slightly changed and a lot of Eir's skills become more deadly. Full revamp once the details are confirmed.

Ultimaga 12-15-2007 02:02 AM

in klunia, after the first wave of moon bind goes off, its cancellable =D

Gota 12-15-2007 02:07 AM

WOW moon bind cancellable!?!!? thats CRAZY

riceburner4540 12-15-2007 02:07 AM

Here's a few of the changes that I've heard or seen (in PvP vids). This isn't official information, by far, and it would be best to treat it as such. There's definitely a good chance I might be wrong in regards to the following:

Light of Healing - Dash cancellable at any point (currently cancellable only after first pulse).

Tears of Goddess - 5 tears instead of 3, the other two tears drop between you and where the 3 tears normally land.

Dodge - Guaranteed cast, even if you get hit during the .25 second cast time. Possibly even higher bounce.

Moon Bind - Dash cancellable (like Tears. You need to dash backwards).

Imagine the possibilities once these changes are implemented!

Alhazard 12-15-2007 08:24 AM

Cut and pasted from my post on luniafan with changes

Pieces should be maxed. Between levels 7~10, it adds about 100 damage per skill point assuming it hits 8 times (as it should since you will only cast it in the right situations). No other skill in Lunia give you that kind of return for the skill point investment. It's silly to say mana is an issue since you are not going to spam it whenever it cools down. If you don't land it right, there is no knockback and Eir's wide open to get comboed.

Dodge should be maxed just because of the AA dodge combo starter.

AAS - Knights can play dead before the S
AA HSP - Knights can play dead before they get hit by holy spirit, then dash AS to start a combo
AA DOD - Knights can play dead before dodge, but the dodge bomb will be placed right above the knight's body so they have to wake up to it.

The most damaging PVP juggle combos should start with the most damaging skills first, and starting a juggle with a skill like dodge lets you add your most damaging skills next to maximize damage.

After dodge (lvl6 or above so it floats high), there are 4 skills you can use to maximize your juggle combo.

Full Moon Bullet: I really don't like this option since sometimes it hits 3 times and sometimes it hits 2. After skill change, it does more damage but travels too inconsistently and requires sacred wave follow-up to deal any kind of damage.

Moonlight Chain: Not really tested but seems promising. The min and max damage are bunched closer than before. Might be able to follow up with other skills/attacks

Holy spirit: All-around versatile skill. Overall damage values changed from wiki's values. Shift so your target doesn't end up hitting the wall prematurely before all 7 hits of spirit hit, follow with dash dash tears (only 4 hits reliably)

Blessed Bravery: I'm going to max this with the pvp healer that I am remaking; potentially can deal most damage out of the four even with minimize damage if you can add enough hits with shift/halfdashes even without breaking the 3 loop rule. Ok I am going to admit this option doesn't look good so far. In the globin forest stage the bravery potion gives you a lvl6 bravery equivalent buff and I noticed that my damage ranged from mid 20s to high 60s, which basically raised average damage by 2x points. That is horrible. I need to do more testing but it seems like I can't recommend maxing this instead of chain/spirit.

Tears of goddess doesn't hit all 6 times reliably so I can't recommend putting more than 1 point in it. The potential changes to it in episode 4 might worth maxing it but need to do more research.

Sacred Wave should be left at 1. The difference between leaving it at level 1 and maxing it is 100 dmg for 5 skill points. Thats not efficient.

Of course I am going to assume that any pvp eir will max bind, get lvl2~3 sleep, and max mana recovery, mana increase, and health increase.

EDIT: and of course lvl1+ fog

riceburner4540 12-15-2007 08:49 AM

Ah...my secrets are coming out =/. Now all the battle Eirs will fight like me. Oh noes!

Alhazard 12-15-2007 09:24 AM

and all seigs and dainn's dont fight like each other? I think its more of a fact that Eir's strategies are very limited.

riceburner4540 12-15-2007 09:26 AM

I thought it was clear I was being sarcastic by the "Oh noes!". The more skilled players there are, the more interesting PvP will be. Bring it on!

Lunar 12-15-2007 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by authentic (Post 91074)
in klunia, after the first wave of moon bind goes off, its cancellable =D

not first wave... half a wave.. just the first 3 shots have to come out

maybe this will help pvp eirs..
vid stolen from klunia site
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY2rznmdmm4
if rofl is here.... see!! no moon barrier!

darkdestiny 12-15-2007 11:15 AM

I personally thhink moon barrier woulda saved her a few times. I'm still wondering why she didn't use the sleep combo. Sheesh, another eir who doesn't heal! I think she woulda won had she healed at all with sunlight. It's almost as stupid as a sieg who doesn't provoke :D.

Lunar 12-15-2007 11:17 AM

friends? dont cheat man dont!

Alhazard 12-15-2007 01:40 PM

even pvp eirs need to stage so why can't they max moon barrier?
you can walk through the barrier while your opponent can't so it might have some interesting applications if you can corner your opponent (most likely with holy spirit).

In pvp, the only safe way to heal I think is to use it after you land spirit. But then you give up all the initiative you have.

As to the vid, I can't say I was impressed. Maybe I fought Zyris too much to realize skill spam isn't a winning strategy. And there were a couple of times where that eir landed her AA that could have turned into huge damage if she did the bind combo.

Seraph 12-15-2007 03:19 PM

Nice guide, you might want to change the font color on the skills, to make it a bit easier to see and to seperate them a bit.

Lunar 12-15-2007 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alhazard (Post 91486)
even pvp eirs need to stage so why can't they max moon barrier?
you can walk through the barrier while your opponent can't so it might have some interesting applications if you can corner your opponent (most likely with holy spirit).

In pvp, the only safe way to heal I think is to use it after you land spirit. But then you give up all the initiative you have.

As to the vid, I can't say I was impressed. Maybe I fought Zyris too much to realize skill spam isn't a winning strategy. And there were a couple of times where that eir landed her AA that could have turned into huge damage if she did the bind combo.

not saying u can't max.. saying it's not necessarily needed..
and the bind combo is like saying.. "can't win. need to use nado+dfist"(if u were a knight) not saying u suck but the mage in the vid sucked...so bind combo would've owned him
skill spam is just fine as long as u watch mp no way u'll be able to reach mage on their haxing range
be11 never used bind combo and did just fine..

Alhazard 12-15-2007 05:26 PM

I'm just going to say we agree to disagree on moon barrier at this point.

Hmm, I would like it if you can elaborate on "haxing range" If you mean the attacking range, I have to agree that Dainn's range and speed is way better than Eir's and that's a huge problem for Eir in general pvp.

I am going to elaborate on my point, which is that if you have a chance at landing a combo, you need to do the most damage possible instead of settling into a melee combo that doesn't do much damage. The mage was doing CBD and pillar rain combos which just eviscerated Eir's life bar as it should while the Eir did most of her damage from pieces and tears. Now if you anticipate the other guys movement thats fine, but I thought I saw way too much instances where the Eir just fired off pieces to get the Dainn off her back.

And Eir basically has 2 practical combos, Bind and Dodge variants. Knights have tornado fist, but also kicking fist and whirling sword follow-ups that can deal big damage on their own (also I got hit with FDS then followups?) It's more like saying the Dainn's using his most damaging combos, why isn't the Eir? It makes a difference using verified combos off the AA that can lead to big damage instead of firing off skills that might not connect and leaves you wide open. And since Eir doesn't have many chances to land her AA, she really needs to do the most damage possible then.

If I recall be11 was really pissed on the day Eir's skills changed that made FMB basically useless.

EDIT: Ok I watched the vid again, and have to correct myself that Eir didnt fire off random pieces as I first thought. It seems that the ones she missed, she anticipated the Dainn dashing straight and he didnt. But come on. Bind xx dashback 180turn tears? that seems to do only 600dmg and that is a huge waste of bind's potential especially considering the 60 second cd time of it. She seems to make good use of dodge that comes out faster in klunia.

If be11 was deadly w/o the bind fog combo, wouldn't be11 be even deadlier with the bind fog combo?

Also, I would like to hear what you think the Dainn did wrong.

Lunar 12-15-2007 06:27 PM

"If be11 was deadly w/o the bind fog combo, wouldn't be11 be even deadlier with the bind fog combo?"
yes of course... that'd be like zyris using nado+dfist... have u seen zy do that.. scary..

i dunno.. haven't seen enough eir pvps to say anymore.. could be that eir's a noob didnt know how to pull it off correctly

as for the mage.. first 30 seconds is.. meh.. he wasted a dragon. he messed up on tons of combos..
then later.. ran in a circle inside the moonfog.. basically all his dmg came from fury and dragon.. they are most damaging but those are basically the only skills that hit rest of the time he ran around doing aas which was a terrible display of its use
can't really explain it i guess... but in my eyes he sucks..


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