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05-26-2013   #1 (permalink)
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Default Next gen PvP

Ok, now I got to admit that PvP is fked. Can't even front. It has been taken over by achievement hunters. Anyone else has the feeling that it's just one person? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWWW3...ature=youtu.be

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-26-2013 at 01:28 PM.
 
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05-26-2013   #2 (permalink)
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Quite the action packed spectacle, I remember spamming all those skills for combos and increasing their height to keep the chain going. By the time they touch the ground they've gone from full health to nothing at all.

All they do is sit there and watch their asses get handed to them. It's as interesting as this youtube clip was.
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05-26-2013   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Quite the action packed spectacle, I remember spamming all those skills for combos and increasing their height to keep the chain going. By the time they touch the ground they've gone from full health to nothing at all.

All they do is sit there and watch their asses get handed to them. It's as interesting as this youtube clip was.
I don't know about the first paragraph, since using skills outside of combos is way more rewarding nowadays. Infinites do not exist anymore. Most characters auto drop at like 60 air now. Tia drops them way earlier. The damage dealt in such combos is pathetic.

Spicy short and damaging combos, sniping and fishing for stray hits is so much better in this version, but what am I talking about? Nobody bothers to play anymore. I used to be a PvP enthusiast until I saw that BS. It's probably happening right now. Recorded that like an hour ago.


Late ass edit: Let me add that the "watch your ass getting handed" mentality is scrubby. You are getting combo'ed for a reason. You can practice inifinites all day long. But it's a pointless effort, if you can't position yourself and your opponent. PvP always had a lot of depht. However scrubs failed to realize that and reduced PvP to a combo festival.
I liked Lunia's PvP because it's the closest to fighting games. Oh well it was.

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-26-2013 at 03:22 PM.
 
05-26-2013   #4 (permalink)
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Not to disrespect your nostalgic memories but PvP has never really boiled down to anything other than running around the map trying to knock the other guy up and then air juggling his ass till he dies. Should the person fail often due to lag then both players yet again run around the map until knockup and air juggles his ass yet again. Rinse and repeat constantly until someone wins.

Battles seldom deviated from this repetitive formula and in fact it's the only thing most people did, the only differences were that some classes were better at it than others and those that couldn't infinite had to think outside the box to win. Only those classes were interesting to spectate.
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05-26-2013   #5 (permalink)
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Whoa this is a prime example of someone that never got into PvP. A spectator without any knowledge says that there are two players running around. As a player you have to approach your opponent in a smart way. Let's take Tia vs Dainn as an example. Dainn's melee range is way better than Tia's therefore she has to rely on her slide or her new dash A chain.
As a Dainn player I want to constantly move and try to punish Tia's slide attempts to put it very simple.

This is just a small example. Krieg has a huge melee range, vs Ryan you want to constantly maintain the "L formation" to avoid getting shot. There is a lot more to prove that you have to be strategic to even get the first hit or rather to win against good players. Yes back in the day people wanted to play with combos only. However old heavy-hitters like Sirgeij (sorry if misspelled) were successful without long ass combos. Yes people looked down on his style, which was wrong. His style added even more depht though. With your logic he was running around shooting a few projectiles correct? Props to you, if you actually read this. At least you are not as ignorant as you sometimes sound like.

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-26-2013 at 04:49 PM.
 
05-26-2013   #6 (permalink)
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I have no problems reading your posts all the way through, I find it interesting to read how an enthusiast found things.
Which is why I won't deny there may be times where there's more going on than I make it sound, and I also won't deny that PvP wasn't for me.

However I did do PvP for quite a while trying my best to get into it and it was ultimately the way I mentioned it above for several months, my dislike for the constant air juggling combo that almost everyone used was very boring, I found it hard to stick with it.

Once Myth hit the scene I didn't try anymore, it became nothing but a cluster**** of stats in free channel with the highest strength player winning the round with skill spam.
At that point I just stuck to the snowman game with no snowballs as that required timing for every action you did, the only difference between that and air juggling is that it went by a lot faster so I could get back into the fray and try again.
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05-26-2013   #7 (permalink)
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Even as an enthusiast you will have trouble getting into PvP. I remember getting destroyed by FuzzyFalcon back when Lunia was hosted by tft. He caught and combo'ed me easily because I was basically a dummy with limited mobility. I have to admit that it made me somewhat mad that he was able to perform such combos. I just failed to realize that I was lacking the knowledge (his moveset, ranges and player/ character specific behaviour etc.) and that I was just less experienced and skilled (mobility and the ability to capitalize on hits.)

Yes I despised how players can kill you in one or two good shots, if the gap in stats is high enough as well. That problem has been solved quite a while ago. That doesn't apply to characters with very low stats though. Guess I just have to accept the fact that people simply moved on. Stats aren't even a problem anymore nowadays. Getting 500 stats is easy and you can add a stat cap to your room. The health pool has been increased and combos are not efficient due to the increased mana costs. You will run out of mana fairly quickly with a stat cap of 500.

Geez I would still be playing, if there was decent competition on the EU channel. But to finally get back on topic there is no hope. I got into 2d fighting games, which have limited mobility options, but damn it's science.

Also snow man battles are awesome. Played that with a nice guildy. Broom and small snow balls only. It was fun.

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-26-2013 at 06:03 PM.
 
05-27-2013   #8 (permalink)
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Last I played, every character save Dacy and maybe Lime had a way to reset the counter and get around the damage decay in combos.

The only way post-Myth Lunia era PvP would be remotely balanced is if everyone conforms to "K-Style" rules. Ironically, by self-imposing rules like K-Style, you are inadvertently confirming that the game is as broken as GunZ to the point where you have to hold back on purpose to make it balanced.
 
05-27-2013   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA
Last I played, every character save Dacy and maybe Lime had a way to reset the counter and get around the damage decay in combos.

The only way post-Myth Lunia era PvP would be remotely balanced is if everyone conforms to "K-Style" rules. Ironically, by self-imposing rules like K-Style, you are inadvertently confirming that the game is as broken as GunZ to the point where you have to hold back on purpose to make it balanced.
Down attack resets still exist, but I have yet to see someone utilizing this on a high level in this version. Is this one of the main reasons people stopped playing?

I'm not trying to get people back into PvP. I gave up and I'm just doing this for the sake of discussion.

IMO PvP has never been better than the current version. I don't know about all versions, but during tft times, leveling took a lot of time. The majority was playing in free mode, where stats were a huge advantage. The playerbase somewhat balanced that problem. However I remember too damn well how a good friend of mine could kill me in a single combo (3 skills required, less than 10 seconds).

In 2009 when Lunia was hosted by ijji, it was all about "balanced mode", where you could literally beat high level characters with a lv 29 character. Yuki was broken, Ryan was broken, Skill and stat dyes have been abused, endu frames, Krieg and Tia were broken etc. etc. I won't deny that PvP has been killed because of all these issues.

However the fact that all of this nonsense is gone still stands true. I have yet to experience any "broken" stuff, which cannot be overcome with skill and knowledge in this version with the exception of currently minor problems (no MP/HP cap). However, feel free to correct me, if I am wrong.
.

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-27-2013 at 04:05 PM.
 
05-27-2013   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiskyo


Down attack resets still exist, but I have yet to see someone utilizing this on a high level in this version. Is this one of the main reasons people stopped playing?

I'm not trying to get people back into PvP. I gave up and I'm just doing this for the sake of discussion.

IMO PvP has never been better than the current version. I don't know about all versions, but during tft times, leveling took a lot of time. The majority was playing in free mode, where stats were a huge advantage. The playerbase somewhat balanced that problem. However I remember too damn well how a good friend of mine could kill me in a single combo (3 skills required, less than 10 seconds).

In 2009 when Lunia was hosted by ijji, it was all about "balanced mode", where you could literally beat high level characters with a lv 29 character. Yuki was broken, Ryan was broken, Skill and stat dyes have been abused, endu frames, Krieg and Tia were broken etc. etc. I won't deny that PvP has been killed because of all these issues.

However the fact that all of this nonsense is gone still stands true. I have yet to experience any "broken" stuff, which cannot be overcome with skill and knowledge in this version with the exception of currently minor problems (no MP/HP cap). However, feel free to correct me, if I am wrong.
.
Is the perma super armor glitch fixed? (ie Protective Fort followed by a skill with any super armor frames results in permanent super armor for the remaining duration of the buff)

You also can't get around the sheer number of skill points a character with many rebirth has over a person with few rebirths. Playing a 1 rebirth character after a 9 rebirth character really showed me the difference in damage as well as how skill builds are obsolete once you have more than 9 rebirths.

As for people quitting, a number of them quit due to the first two balance patches (or "unbalance patches" where Tia and Krieg were buffed to extreme levels), then eventually people followed suit because their friends quit, and it snowballed from there as AllM neglected to fix PvP until most old PvP veterans were already gone. After that, many of the skilled players were gone so out of the few remaining some quit as well.

Chances of people going back to Lunia for the PvP are low, as the last time I was on the new PvP "vets" were quite disappointing even with almost 2 years worth of rust.
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05-27-2013   #11 (permalink)
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I have never seen that glitch being used. All I know is that all skills have different properties in stages and PvP. E.g Sieg gets super armor when he uses a lv +4 whirling sword in stages. In PvP the same skill does not have super armor, deals less damage and costs more mana. Dainn's Ice wall doesn't freeze in PvP. Tia can't dash cancel her back stab in PvP. With 13 k hp being average I would need 3-4 zero decay back stabs. I actually used Tia just a week ago.

Nowadays you can get to 7 rebirths in the first month, granted you received the 500 free l coins.
Maxing out all skills can backfire in PvP especially when you perform long combos. As a zoner (for scrubs spammers) you will have to aim your skills carefully. You can run out of mana fairly quickly because of the generally used 500 stat cap. I've played with people who would aimlessly use skills and then use melee only because they went oom.

PvP seems to be better than ever except for the fact that there is no proper competition. I'm only worried about a few characters such as Arta and Iris, but I have yet to run into competitive players using those two.
 
05-27-2013   #12 (permalink)
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I think with 500 int cap as long as you know how to do resets you can take 2 lives before you go OOM. Wasn't a problem until the last life then people got mad at me for doing infinites with Asuka last time I played.

Saw the new property thing, but it feels too convoluted for me. They changed skill properties too much for me even though I find complicated concepts interesting. Actually, that's one of the things that really really bugs me. One major gripe I have is how they changed some of the skills (Mostly Asuka for obvious reasons). Asuka's Blade Seal used to move forwards before launching the beams and then falling the same distance forward, but now it's just a jump straight up before you fall forwards a distance. Another thing is how Moon Sever can't be cancelled by skills. There's some other stuff that I really don't like but yeah I'd go on forever with this. Changes completely destroyed some of the combos I made (Especially Spiteful HKDs vs Dacies as well as Heart Piercer 2hit Blade Seal etc. too many to list). But yeah that's going off topic.

I'm not sure how 7 rebirths in 1 month works unless they came out with a new book that lets you rebirth whenever you want, but I haven't followed cash shop items. When I was on 9 rebirths, maxing skills generally meant maxing passives, since everyone has +phys/+element damage/+HP/MP/regen as well as minimize on Asuka. I did max some damage skills, but I just leveled up skills so I would have cancels for all of them.

Lack of competitive PvP is why lots of old players aren't going back. I'm pretty sure that if there was still a good PvP base most people would come back too (I'd probably hop on board again), but I think the main problem is that people aren't really dedicated to combos anymore, especially with the flinch system that AllM threw in. Punishing long air combos once the damage drops to 1s is really discouraging to people trying to do/create combos.

500 stat cap being used sounds good as you don't have the 501 leap in there and most stats should reach around 500 unless the character is using low level equipment and not upgrading it. I would like them to separate PvP and PvE builds so rebirth SP can be limited so there aren't huge advantages, but not much you can do about that.
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05-27-2013   #13 (permalink)
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Yeah characters that have melee inifinites are a problem. But I guess you can go crazy with any character when it comes to space resets (except Dacy). There are no PvP beasts to make this seem as realistic as it actually is. You must be very good to be able to kill someone once you catch him/her.
Did you do that when stat caps were added?

I kinda wanted to experiment with a lot of stuff. In stages Dainn still has four earth pillars and the ice pillars actually hit. In stages you can do crazy things like AA dash AS Icicle rain or summon rock. All of that doesn't work in PvP :/

Well short combos still have the advantage that it's guaranteed damage, if you have the execution. Zoners will have the problem of missing skills and wasting mana.

Oh I started playing Gaon just when global lunia started. There are new rb books. The first one allows you to reach 4 rbs in a month heck in one day. Your levels and quest will not be reset. You can basically make a new character, level to 70 rebirth without level reset and go myth right away. You can decide whether you want to rb 4 times right away and buy the next book to reach 7 rebirths or to go to lv 80 first for more sp. Catching up has never been easier. That reminds me that I didn't rebirth for quite a few months noooooo.

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-27-2013 at 08:15 PM.
 
05-27-2013   #14 (permalink)
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Next gen PVP
Spoiler!


I missed my chance just because I was setting up nice music ;_; NOOOOOOOO
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Quote:
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That reminds me that I didn't rebirth for quite a few months noooooo.
I haven't done it in several years, do you mind catching me back up to around 43 rebirths for me? That would be swell.
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05-28-2013   #16 (permalink)
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Next gen PVP
Spoiler!


I missed my chance just because I was setting up nice music ;_; NOOOOOOOO
Lol something similar happened to me a few days ago. I checked the Lobby and saw some people in a 1v1 match. "Omg I'm gonna destroy them with Tia!" *Switches character, connects to square*. "Hm, I don't like that outfit". *Switches to green pirate set* "Where are my pirate gloves? Oh well, time for PvP!"

*Enters the PvP Lobby* "-_-"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
I haven't done it in several years, do you mind catching me back up to around 43 rebirths for me? That would be swell.
Wow, that character would be unecessarily powerful. I just remembered that you can still buy +1 Sp tickets and that people actually spam them nowadays to get to whatever amount of sp they want.. One of the many flaws of the free cash shop.

Fun facts: The character with the highest total level is Iris the latest character (total level 7140) according to the ranking. Second one is NightShadowX's Sieg with a total level of 4455.
 
05-28-2013   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Wow, that character would be unecessarily powerful. I just remembered that you can still buy +1 Sp tickets and that people actually spam them nowadays to get to whatever amount of sp they want.. One of the many flaws of the free cash shop.
She was already unnecessarily powerful after a couple rebirths, I ended around 15 of them and I could max my characters entire skill tree with dozens of points left over I couldn't use.

Had I still been keeping up with rebirth the past 4 years you can calculate just how far I'd have gotten with those nice little 1 month books as I was a merchant so money was no obstacle.

Now that I think about it the free cash shop also means daily boxes galore, so +15 Cold Shining is extremely easy to obtain... wow I'd break the 32bit binary limit with my overall stats.
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05-29-2013   #18 (permalink)
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I never checked by how much the stats increase once you rebirth, but I bet you could have let Dacy's dolls do the work for you. Currently 43800 str is the highest on the server.

Shoutouts to vvannabe, BioGen and VainIcarus. Had a really really fun time in PvP with them today. 2 vs 2 matches and I really mean team vs team. You couldn't perform combos without eating a destruction fist. We constantly kept an eye on our team mate to interrupt the opponents combos, if needed and we had some nice teamwork moments as well. Most memorable moment was the simultaneous triple Iron hammer on a stunned Sieg (for some reason one Sieg misstook the stunned Sieg for his enemy lol). I wish I recorded that.

Nobody was overpowered, since we literally had the same stats.

If allm didn't fk up, I would still be trying to get people back into this

Last edited by Seiskyo; 05-29-2013 at 10:51 AM.
 
05-29-2013   #19 (permalink)
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IGN: Light, Yucie
Class: Kanna
Level: 208
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I believe it was 3 for other stats and 5 for your main, with it being 5 and 7 for the first rebirth.

At the cap of 50 rebirths unless recently increased due to the fact people should have that by now we can conclude that my Dacy would have:

Level 1
122 Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence
257 Vitality

40~61 Basic Damage Holy Shit! + 3.7% Skill Damage
3.7% Cooldown & 3.7% Damage Reduction
1,285 HP & 610 Mana Come at me bros

Level 90
854 Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence
1799 Vitality

284~428 Basic Damage + 25.8% Skill Damage
25.9% Cooldown & 25.9% Damage Reduction
12,389 HP & 5,766 Mana

---

That's the bonuses when you're naked, I haven't even factored in the base stats which will raise these by another few hundred making you the most powerful naked little girl ever recorded in gaming history.

However the numbers may actually be 5 and 7 per rebirth and 7 and 9 for the first but I don't remember since it has been so long.
Even at the lower rebirth numbers that's absurd bonuses, when you start wearing +15 Cold Shining gear with superior grades you can pat yourself on the back for breaking the game with the press of a button.
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05-29-2013   #20 (permalink)
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IGN: 混合
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Quoted since it's been a few posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiskyo
Yeah characters that have melee inifinites are a problem. But I guess you can go crazy with any character when it comes to space resets (except Dacy). There are no PvP beasts to make this seem as realistic as it actually is. You must be very good to be able to kill someone once you catch him/her.
Did you do that when stat caps were added?

Yeah, I did go 3-1 on most people, but I had to change my PvP style a lot after my first match since I went 3-2 with major MP problems from the stat caps.

I usually combine fake resets as well as space resets my combos, which I consider part of the entire combo if the enemy falls for it, such as reset Flash of Light (Works same way as Crescent Moon Sword), reset Bladestorm (Have to back up a little, most attack ranges are shorter than Bladestorm so I hit with the edge of the skill), reset Spiteful Strike (Range is a bit larger than Bladestorm so same principle).

Another benefit to Asuka is the >>S ground scrape reset which I can follow with a lot of her skills, but again changes to her skills destroyed a lot of ways I used this in combos.


I kinda wanted to experiment with a lot of stuff. In stages Dainn still has four earth pillars and the ice pillars actually hit. In stages you can do crazy things like AA dash AS Icicle rain or summon rock. All of that doesn't work in PvP :/

That sounds like a major change to the skill properties as well as the cast time on most skills. Having to learn different strings for stage and PvP doesn't really roll with me. I'm assuming the practice field is based off PvP effects though otherwise you wouldn't be able to practice combos properly.

Zoners usually don't fare that well in PvP from what I see, as their strategy is rendered ineffective after you land the first combo on them. As long as you stay within a close distance but far enough away so that they can't hit you with the getup A you can take out most classes with this strategy. Perhaps its a mobility related issue as Asuka has movement on nearly all her skills making it easy to chase.
Stats were 5/3 for your main, and +2 to each for every additional rebirth or something, then you would add the same amount onto the number again every 10 or 20 levels I forget.

Formula was 3 + 2*(#ofRB) for main stat, and 3 + 2*(#ofRB-1) for other stats (If it's 7main/5others for the first rebirth, then just change the 3 to a 5 I don't remember exactly the starting amount). So its pretty much 105/103 bonus to stats for a fresh rebirth 50 character.
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