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09-30-2008   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godbot3000
And certainly that's fairer for lowbies then?
I said countless times, I only fight people my level and my playing skills in free. And if they do want to fight me in balance, I never decline that offer. As for other people fighting low levels, its not hard to hit high level, and its not my business since it doesn't affect me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godbot3000
I am using a proof by contradiction. Summary of the form:
1. Assume that balance is unfair.
2. If balance is unfair, then free must be fairer than balanced.
3. If free is fairer than balanced, then one level should not matter as significantly in free as it does in balanced.
4. One level can make the difference in free, but not as much in balanced.
5. #3 is contradicted.
6. #2 is contradicted.
7. #1 is contradicted. Thus forcing you to accept the contrary conclusion: Balance is not unfair.

To what extent it is not unfair is something that you may dispute. But given that you already affirmed several of my premises, you have already accepted my conclusion.
Yes balance is unfair because its title is a lie. It says that it is balance but it is not. That is the problem with balance. If it was truly balance, level and gears should not matter which is why it is unfair. People who say that playing balance is the way to prove that you are truly better than someone is a lie, because it still takes level and gears into account.

Free is still not fair though, but the title is not a lie. It is like choosing the lesser of the two evil. Free = there is no nerf or buff in your character. To actually win in free, you need a combination of level, gears, and playing skills. Which is what lots of people complain about but that is the definition of free. So they would say to go to balance because that is truly only depends on playing skills, but that is a lie.

And that is why balance is broken. If they fix it so that level and gears no longer matter in balance, I will give up my vit sets and free channel and play balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiety
You're missing my point. Jumper is stating that balanced is broken because these low levels do ridiculous damage. Higher levels get to do said ridiculous damage because they have skills that the low levels do not have access to.

/case-point
If I was that low level, I could do alot with just my slide, AASS, roll, and down attack. With godly damage, I could easily win a lot of battles with my trusty AASS and down attacks. Sure higher level gets more skills to work with, but that also means that they have to spend more time learning harder combos. I'll rather be the low level who fights on par with a higher level who spend a lot more time and effort into the game.
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09-30-2008   #62 (permalink)
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So basically what I'm reading here is that Balance isn't perfectly balanced the way you want it to be in every circumstance, so you'd rather just play Free where there isn't even an attempt to even the match.

Wonderful. Have fun living in ignorance and denial of the way the game is not naturally balanced for PvP.
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09-30-2008   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1s3ri
So basically what I'm reading here is that Balance isn't perfectly balanced the way you want it to be in every circumstance, so you'd rather just play Free where there isn't even an attempt to even the match.

Wonderful. Have fun living in ignorance and denial of the way the game is not naturally balanced for PvP.
You make it seems like we go around looking for noobs with low level and no equips to fight. Lots of people now in PVP have really nice equips.

When the PVP torny was first announced in free, I was pissed off cause that means that I would get owned. Rather than complaining about it, I got myself some nice gears and everyone can do the same.

If you are given a certain rule to a game, I would rather play the game according to their rule instead of not playing at all. Lunia PVP is not base on skills alone like the way everyone want. Its based on high levels and equipments as well. You can either improve your level and equipments, or wait until there is a better balance channel and work on your playing skill.
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09-30-2008   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I said countless times, I only fight people my level and my playing skills in free. And if they do want to fight me in balance, I never decline that offer. As for other people fighting low levels, its not hard to hit high level, and its not my business since it doesn't affect me.
When have we been talking about you? This is a matter that affects the entire community. Continue this bit of logic and I would be forced to label you as selfish.

Quote:
Yes balance is unfair because its title is a lie. It says that it is balance but it is not. That is the problem with balance.
Yes, sure. Instant noodles are lies because they don't cook instantly. This point makes no sense at all and is completely irrelevant.

Quote:
If it was truly balance, level and gears should not matter which is why it is unfair. People who say that playing balance is the way to prove that you are truly better than someone is a lie, because it still takes level and gears into account.
And free does not take gear and levels into account? A secondary argument of mine is that balance is more fair than free as you probably could have seen when #2 and #3 were contradicted.

Quote:
Free is still not fair though, but the title is not a lie. It is like choosing the lesser of the two evil.
No it is not. It is choosing the GREATER of two evils. As I have already established, and you have affirmed by not disproving any of my premises.

Quote:
Free = there is no nerf or buff in your character. To actually win in free, you need a combination of level, gears, and playing skills.
I agree.
Quote:
Which is what lots of people complain about but that is the definition of free. So they would say to go to balance because that is truly only depends on playing skills, but that is a lie.
I disagree. I personally carry some fairly good gear, but I prefer balanced. Why? My equipment does not matter as much in balanced as it does in free. Other people who carry good equipment (a certain spam oriented wizard comes to mind) prefer free over balanced because, and I quote "I DO SO LITTLE DAMAGE IN BALANCED!" He is referring to the fact that you have to expend more resources (mp) to take down an opponent in balanced than in free. This clearly shows that fighting in balanced requires more constant output of skill in order to win, where as in free, said wizard can just spam his heart out and win far easier than he could in balanced.

Quote:
And that is why balance is broken. If they fix it so that level and gears no longer matter in balance, I will give up my vit sets and free channel and play balance.
See above.
 
09-30-2008   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
You make it seems like we go around looking for noobs with low level and no equips to fight. Lots of people now in PVP have really nice equips.

When the PVP torny was first announced in free, I was pissed off cause that means that I would get owned. Rather than complaining about it, I got myself some nice gears and everyone can do the same.

If you are given a certain rule to a game, I would rather play the game according to their rule instead of not playing at all. Lunia PVP is not base on skills alone like the way everyone want. Its based on high levels and equipments as well. You can either improve your level and equipments, or wait until there is a better balance channel and work on your playing skill.
Meh, accidentally lost wall of text reply I had, but Rally seems to have summed up most of it and I don't really care to redo this argument all over again. I'll just take the time to re-type these two things: I was not purely referring to equipment or level; and between the present choices, Balance is the lesser of the two evils.
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09-30-2008   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumper
I always ask for a dmg check before I fight anyone in balanced to make sure it's balanced.

(Etna, don't you remem when we made our limes? Yours was 38 I think mines was 36 and we pvped. I did about 1.5x more dmg on all melee+skills even though my stats were inferior.)
ya i remember it no worries~ hence why i think they should work on balanced to improve it.. still even if its left as is i would still like to see it kept around. even if its not perfect its still more fair when youre a lvl 30- fighting a 50+ in balanced than it is in free.. which i love to do alot when im lvling my alts [like my soon to be dacy]

bottom line~ balanced is fun either way because i can have fun struggling to beat high lvls at low lvls and lvl at the same time till i can handle higher lvls in free
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09-30-2008   #67 (permalink)
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Yes, sure. Instant noodles are lies because they don't cook instantly. This point makes no sense at all and is completely irrelevant.
Its because too many people actually believe that balance depends only on skills just because the title says balance. If people starts to say that instant noodles actually cook instantly, then they are clearly wrong.

Quote:
And free does not take gear and levels into account? A secondary argument of mine is that balance is more fair than free as you probably could have seen when #2 and #3 were contradicted.
Look at Jumper's video. It seems pretty unfair to me. The damage equations that is used is clearly broken at the moment. Also, although vit doesn't do much in balance, other stats such as resistance and damage still effects balance a lot. I already have a vit gear for free channel. I don't want to spend lots of time now getting a damage gear for balance. And yes, balance is very affected by damage. Remember when you can fight gm's in pvp? All of their stats was maxed out in balance. But their skills still did normal damage. But when they use an attack that is base of damage, lets say a Sieg S attack, it was instant KO.

Quote:
I disagree. I personally carry some fairly good gear, but I prefer balanced. Why? My equipment does not matter as much in balanced as it does in free. Other people who carry good equipment (a certain spam oriented wizard comes to mind) prefer free over balanced because, and I quote "I DO SO LITTLE DAMAGE IN BALANCED!" He is referring to the fact that you have to expend more resources (mp) to take down an opponent in balanced than in free. This clearly shows that fighting in balanced requires more constant output of skill in order to win, where as in free, said wizard can just spam his heart out and win far easier than he could in balanced.
Comboing and conserving mp is not the only way to pvp. Spamming is another way to pvp. Both free and balance server have different stats (mp/hp) so there are different strategies to play in both. Obviously this guy did not play in balance enough to adapt to a different environment of playing style.
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09-30-2008   #68 (permalink)
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balance sux, im not going there, except if i make a lvl1~15 char...

Today i found a friend he is low lvl cuz he is back to game only now, im using a lvl54 char, and he is using a lvl21, i do 70 per normal attack, he does 30, balance MY ASS!

balance is totally retarded, the dmg makes no sense

the only thing balance server has about balance is the name,

fight people of your lvl in free that is a real "balanced" fight

balance server is broken
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09-30-2008   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
Its because too many people actually believe that balance depends only on skills just because the title says balance. If people starts to say that instant noodles actually cook instantly, then they are clearly wrong.
I don't even know how to respond to this. You're just continuing an irrelevant point. Let's juxtapose this: Suppose the word 'free' had the word 'balanced''s definition, but was still the same mode as it is. Following your logic, that would mean that people would believe that free depends only on skill just because the title says 'free'. If you think this is absurd, that's because it is. No one should go into balanced or free with the expectation that the mode is anything but pvp. Only the experience in the mode can determine whether it is fair, unfair, balanced, unbalanced, whatever.

Quote:
Look at Jumper's video. It seems pretty unfair to me. The damage equations that is used is clearly broken at the moment. Also, although vit doesn't do much in balance, other stats such as resistance and damage still effects balance a lot. I already have a vit gear for free channel. I don't want to spend lots of time now getting a damage gear for balance. And yes, balance is very affected by damage. Remember when you can fight gm's in pvp? All of their stats was maxed out in balance. But their skills still did normal damage. But when they use an attack that is base of damage, lets say a Sieg S attack, it was instant KO.
Look at the opposite scenario: What if Jumper pvped the same tia in free?

Clearly Jumper would win due to the 14 level difference, but that's not all. The level 4 Tia would have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE TO WIN. Yea. Try to disprove me here. At max, that level 4 could only have around 300 hp. Jumper is therefore pretty much guaranteed 1 combo kills, so there is no chance at all for him to lose, automatic 3-0. Comparing this to balanced, we can clearly see that Jumper had a chance to win, given that he was able to take out 1/2 of the tia's hp in one combo.

Now, given this, I will ask you, which mode is fairer?

Quote:
Comboing and conserving mp is not the only way to pvp. Spamming is another way to pvp. Both free and balance server have different stats (mp/hp) so there are different strategies to play in both. Obviously this guy did not play in balance enough to adapt to a different environment of playing style.
This point is irrelevant and does nothing to disprove my point that balance requires a more persistent output of skill, which free lacks, given that you only live around 40 seconds on average in free compared to 60 seconds on average in balanced.
 
09-30-2008   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadeshi
balance sux, im not going there, except if i make a lvl1~15 char...

Today i found a friend he is low lvl cuz he is back to game only now, im using a lvl54 char, and he is using a lvl21, i do 70 per normal attack, he does 30, balance MY ASS!

balance is totally retarded, the dmg makes no sense

the only thing balance server has about balance is the name,

fight people of your lvl in free that is a real "balanced" fight

balance server is broken
nice.. free would be so much more fairer for 30 vs 54
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09-30-2008   #71 (permalink)
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Look at the opposite scenario: What if Jumper pvped the same tia in free?

Clearly Jumper would win due to the 14 level difference, but that's not all. The level 4 Tia would have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE TO WIN. Yea. Try to disprove me here. At max, that level 4 could only have around 300 hp. Jumper is therefore pretty much guaranteed 1 combo kills, so there is no chance at all for him to lose, automatic 3-0. Comparing this to balanced, we can clearly see that Jumper had a chance to win, given that he was able to take out 1/2 of the tia's hp in one combo.

Now, given this, I will ask you, which mode is fairer?
1. Why would you ever fight someone 14 level difference unless you like killing low levels or they are actually your friend.
2. Balance is yes, better for level difference battles, which I do not partake in. Which is why I support free. As I said before, free is for fighting people your own level. While balance is for fighting people with lots of level difference. But the level difference causes lots of damage hax as seen by jumper. Which is why it needs to be fixed.

Quote:
This point is irrelevant and does nothing to disprove my point that balance requires a more persistent output of skill, which free lacks, given that you only live around 40 seconds on average in free compared to 60 seconds on average in balanced.
More persistent output of skill? Whee 20 seconds more per life. Its not like its a real life battle where your skills actually diminish as the battle goes on. I have pvped for like 12 hours straight. I don't get what does a longer fight has to do with more skills. In the end, different length of battle = different tactics. For balance, I can tank more attacks while in free, I have to learn to dodge more.
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09-30-2008   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
1. Why would you ever fight someone 14 level difference unless you like killing low levels or they are actually your friend.
2. Balance is yes, better for level difference battles, which I do not partake in. Which is why I support free. As I said before, free is for fighting people your own level. While balance is for fighting people with lots of level difference. But the level difference causes lots of damage hax as seen by jumper. Which is why it needs to be fixed.
We are talking about which mode is FAIRER than the other, not what you would do to eliminate the unfairness that is inherent in whatever mode; that is completely irrelevant. I can turn your argument right against you and say "I will never pvp anyone who is too different from me in balanced", well, problem solved, let's all go to balanced.

Quote:
More persistent output of skill? Whee 20 seconds more per life. Its not like its a real life battle where your skills actually diminish as the battle goes on. I have pvped for like 12 hours straight. I don't get what does a longer fight has to do with more skills. In the end, different length of battle = different tactics. For balance, I can tank more attacks while in free, I have to learn to dodge more.
Zzzzz. It's like this: Suppose you are a sieg and have only 400 hp on your last life, you opponent is in the same boat. One d-fist means the end of the match, so it really boils down to who can get in that d-fist before the other. This is the situation in free, you have lower survivability, so you don't have to maintain the same level of effort for as long as you do in balanced. The longer you are around, the more chance you have to screw up and get whacked. By choosing to free, you say that you do not want to face that chance of messing up, but not messing up is a skill in and of itself.

...Hm...
 
09-30-2008   #73 (permalink)
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I can turn your argument right against you and say "I will never pvp anyone who is too different from me in balanced", well, problem solved, let's all go to balanced.
Quote:
(Etna, don't you remem when we made our limes? Yours was 38 I think mines was 36 and we pvped. I did about 1.5x more dmg on all melee+skills even though my stats were inferior.)
Quote:
ya i remember it no worries~ hence why i think they should work on balanced to improve it..
But in Free mode this would not occur.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumper
But in Free mode this would not occur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godbot3000
Look at the opposite scenario: What if Jumper pvped the same tia in free?

Clearly Jumper would win due to the 14 level difference, but that's not all. The level 4 Tia would have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE TO WIN. Yea. Try to disprove me here. At max, that level 4 could only have around 300 hp. Jumper is therefore pretty much guaranteed 1 combo kills, so there is no chance at all for him to lose, automatic 3-0. Comparing this to balanced, we can clearly see that Jumper had a chance to win, given that he was able to take out 1/2 of the tia's hp in one combo.

Now, given this, I will ask you, which mode is fairer?
What matters is what happens more often, not what happens in one isolated incident. I can prove that any match between a level 18 vs a level 4 of roughly equal skill in free, the level 18 will win with almost 100% certainty. Can you provide another instance in which a two level difference caused a massive difference in power in balanced?

p.s. Let's not forget: http://www.mylunia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18131
 
09-30-2008   #75 (permalink)
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We are talking about which mode is FAIRER than the other, not what you would do to eliminate the unfairness that is inherent in whatever mode; that is completely irrelevant. I can turn your argument right against you and say "I will never pvp anyone who is too different from me in balanced", well, problem solved, let's all go to balanced.

Zzzzz. It's like this: Suppose you are a sieg and have only 400 hp on your last life, you opponent is in the same boat. One d-fist means the end of the match, so it really boils down to who can get in that d-fist before the other. This is the situation in free, you have lower survivability, so you don't have to maintain the same level of effort for as long as you do in balanced. The longer you are around, the more chance you have to screw up and get whacked. By choosing to free, you say that you do not want to face that chance of messing up, but not messing up is a skill in and of itself.

...Hm...
I guess in the end, it all boils down to opinions. Just as you said, in free, you have have the hp to goof around or make an error. Like what happens for me a lot is that I miss one back stab combo, and it cost me the whole match. With this sort of constraint on you, you get into a habit of perfectioning your combo. So when you are in a PVP torny or an important match, you won't mess up. Also, having a higher change of dying puts more pressure on the player making it a lot harder to work properly. Which is why I like playing free for people my level. It helps us both improve a lot in a single game.

While balance is more fair for fighting lower levels, I don't get any pleasure from killing low levels. I guess I like playing under lots of pressure, which is why I like Search and Destroy games in Combat Arms where I'm the last one against a team of 8 people.

Free = people who like lots of pressure
Balance = people who likes longer match/less spamming

But eh, maybe we can ask for a 3rd server that can combine em.

Like make everyone have level 60 stats in free. o.o;
I would actually love to see how that would work.
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09-30-2008   #76 (permalink)
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we dont gots that bug anymore.. or i haven't seen it cause NO ONE GOES TO BALANCE
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I guess in the end, it all boils down to opinions. Just as you said, in free, you have have the hp to goof around or make an error. Like what happens for me a lot is that I miss one back stab combo, and it cost me the whole match. With this sort of constraint on you, you get into a habit of perfectioning your combo. So when you are in a PVP torny or an important match, you won't mess up. Also, having a higher change of dying puts more pressure on the player making it a lot harder to work properly. Which is why I like playing free for people my level. It helps us both improve a lot in a single game.

While balance is more fair for fighting lower levels, I don't get any pleasure from killing low levels. I guess I like playing under lots of pressure, which is why I like Search and Destroy games in Combat Arms where I'm the last one against a team of 8 people.

Free = people who like lots of pressure
Balance = people who likes longer match/less spamming
I don't know anyone else who lets their guard down more in balanced than they do in free. I certainly don't at least.

Quote:
But eh, maybe we can ask for a 3rd server that can combine em.

Like make everyone have level 60 stats in free. o.o;
I would actually love to see how that would work.
Didn't KLunia have something like that?

@ Lunar: I do, and it certainly does still happen (ouch @ 300 melees from a level 56 sieg)
 
09-30-2008   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lunar
we dont gots that bug anymore.. or i haven't seen it cause NO ONE GOES TO BALANCE
I think everyone has this problem. I think we all go to balance and see no one there. So we go back to free. If you guys really want to change it, the moment Lunia comes back up, everyone rushes to balance mode and make lots of room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godbot3000
I don't know anyone else who lets their guard down more in balanced than they do in free. I certainly don't at least.
Well not let your guard down, but willing to take more hits. For example, in free, I never want to get hit by a fire orb cause it hurts. But in balance, I would sometimes take the hit so that I can get closer to them and do a back stab combo or to stop them from charging up some spell or mp.
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09-30-2008   #79 (permalink)
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yes. that was the plan..
i was gonna make a thread the day before lunia comes out.. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godbot3000
@ Lunar: I do, and it certainly does still happen (ouch @ 300 melees from a level 56 sieg)
in glunia? cause wutever. glunia's balance mode isn't up to date yet..

and yes... i double posted... laziness..

Gaiety: Laziness = infractions /ok
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09-30-2008   #80 (permalink)
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Actually, yes. It DOES happen often.
First match I go to in JL today: I see a 28 Sieg and 29 Eir fighting.

The Eir is hitting 100's with melee. The Sieg is hitting 50's.
The Eir can easily dish out 500 dmg with a single dodge.
The Sieg? probably wouldn't do that much dmg in a 20 hit combo.

I checked their stats and they had very similar gears. Nearly same stats.
I'll upload the vid if you like.

Edit:

Next match, a lvl 18 Sieg replaces the current Sieg. He hits 60's with melee. His stats are actually way worse than the previous knight. The Eir still hits insanly high compared to him. 120's.
Next up, A Yuki lvl 20. She hits 20's with melee and 160 with the most powerful skill she had (the dark fog copy). The Eir still hit an amazing 120 w/ melee/150 with HS/200's with pieces.
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