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08-08-2009   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb pvp/stage skills

(*.*) wall of text btw Oo

I crawled out of pvp balance today to do a 6-10h run for my random box key and i couldn't help noticing how differently(in a negative way) stagers play D:
I'm pointing out the obvious here, but specifically i noticed this dacy. When it came to mob control everything was smooth, s/he knew that to do and all that stuff. Its when we reached the boss or single monsters that s/he messed up, imo. Heres a list Oo;

-she boinked from far, which gave a 1 hit out of its 4 hit potential
-used RRP as an attack, which imo is an useless attack for non-mobs and best used for invinci
-used thunder candy as an attack. This point seems odd, but my reasoning is that s/he didn't utilise its potential as a mob dragging constant 500 dmg attack, and instead opted for a 2 hit waste of invinci attack
-RB bumby. A great mobbing but hits about 3x for like? 300mp?
-General wastes of invincis
-Didn't know when to give up, as in cancels. In pvp if the move will result in you being vunerable to counter attacks then you give up ASAP.

I'd like the point out that these are just my opinions and you should not feel obliged to play like this, however i feel they target efficiency which everyone could gain from. Also this is aimed towards bosses or non-mob monsters, when mobbing this kinda becomes pointless.

Now to the point of this story. I feel that this way of thinking was gained from my pvp-ing from lvl 1, mostly the last two points although all of them have a common link of efficency.
I mean nothing s/he did was bad, we still cleared the stage (although im suspect to think that the RB helped and the fact that 6-10h is fricken easy). We can't all be playing at our 100% potential and constantly thinking about best ways to approach bosses, sometimes we like to mindlessly press buttons especially when we're watching tv or something, but the case was not a matter of when to use these "skills" but a matter of HOW.
So the thought bugged me for days and i have time to type this up, i just wondered whether you people think some stagers could benefit from a few PVP lessons and vice versa, and which classes?

(thanks for reading if you read it all and bearing with the typos)
 
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08-08-2009   #2 (permalink)
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I don't blame you.

I often see pub Dainns with their Rb FoL dishing out tons of damage, but when it comes to simple Ice Wall on Zakhan, they fail. It seems to be more of people's lack of experience when it comes to strategic staging and thus utilizing a character to his full potential isn't even needed.
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08-08-2009   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunFromTheBall
(*.*) wall of text btw Oo

I crawled out of pvp balance today to do a 6-10h run for my random box key and i couldn't help noticing how differently(in a negative way) stagers play D:
I'm pointing out the obvious here, but specifically i noticed this dacy. When it came to mob control everything was smooth, s/he knew that to do and all that stuff. Its when we reached the boss or single monsters that s/he messed up, imo. Heres a list Oo;

-she boinked from far, which gave a 1 hit out of its 4 hit potential
-used RRP as an attack, which imo is an useless attack for non-mobs and best used for invinci
-used thunder candy as an attack. This point seems odd, but my reasoning is that s/he didn't utilise its potential as a mob dragging constant 500 dmg attack, and instead opted for a 2 hit waste of invinci attack
-RB bumby. A great mobbing but hits about 3x for like? 300mp?
-General wastes of invincis
-Didn't know when to give up, as in cancels. In pvp if the move will result in you being vunerable to counter attacks then you give up ASAP.

I'd like the point out that these are just my opinions and you should not feel obliged to play like this, however i feel they target efficiency which everyone could gain from. Also this is aimed towards bosses or non-mob monsters, when mobbing this kinda becomes pointless.

Now to the point of this story. I feel that this way of thinking was gained from my pvp-ing from lvl 1, mostly the last two points although all of them have a common link of efficency.
I mean nothing s/he did was bad, we still cleared the stage (although im suspect to think that the RB helped and the fact that 6-10h is fricken easy). We can't all be playing at our 100% potential and constantly thinking about best ways to approach bosses, sometimes we like to mindlessly press buttons especially when we're watching tv or something, but the case was not a matter of when to use these "skills" but a matter of HOW.
So the thought bugged me for days and i have time to type this up, i just wondered whether you people think some stagers could benefit from a few PVP lessons and vice versa, and which classes?

(thanks for reading if you read it all and bearing with the typos)
I used rrp+cancel/candy for attacking too. Sometimes I used them to suck up the attacks for my teammates. You said the mobbing was fine, so I suppose the issue is the boss ? Well, there's nothing much dacy can do against a boss, I suspect a yuki/arien of the same lvl can take down L .rigel as compare to dacy on H.rigel. A lime/krieg, if play well could even take down L soldin at the same time. But hey , this is 6-10h. I dont know anyone will put in their all in that stage.

There's no need for pvpers to actually learn from stage, they have other alternatives . Stage is more like a fixed puzzle, with minimal variations. The closest pvpers can get is battlefield and that's a very good practice tbh.

Last edited by whitepage; 08-08-2009 at 09:42 AM. Reason: mistakes :l
 
08-08-2009   #4 (permalink)
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I see this in m2 to very often. The people I see that are pure stagers (With a few exceptions) often have a hard time dodging Foriel or the Talman King. I see Sieg's not using counter, magic defence or playdead. I also see people not timing things so that they can attack in between attacks, so that they don't end up dead. I.E D-fisting right before the Talman Kings smash and S cancelling and running away.
 
08-08-2009   #5 (permalink)
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I find that good pvpers often have an easier time staging because they're used to approaching situations in a strategic manner. Better yet, they know when to dodge and when to gtfo.

Stagers that never pvped in their lives just don't know as much cuz they never really used all those small things that pvpers would use and fully take to their advantage. Like I mean, they'll eventually figure it out from others or on their own, but probably at a lesser speed than a pvper.

Feeding off of X's example, a good pvper would know that an ice wall is a good way to manuever around and dodge your opponent when he's running after you (espeacially with mdef), he would know that it can be used very well to trap an opponent in a corner (although its usually illegal), and he even knows that it can be used for an xtra push while dashing, getting you out of tight situations at times. In a stager's point of view (well, the news ones anyways), its more like "Wtf? An ice wall? What the hell do i need that for? I'll just go pewpew damage and they dead! No need dawg".
 
08-08-2009   #6 (permalink)
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problem with stage is
people are unconfident in their skills so they try play it safe
good stagers know what they are doing. they can time each cooldown on each section, know all shortcuts etc etc

for instance

4-10L.
lots of people whine when i flute the traps on bottom
even though its almost guaranteed death for entire party
but still it can cut atleast a min and a half of a 10 min run
i dont mind throwing a life away because im confident i wont die
plus if you have eir you can just light shield, krieg mdef, invincibility frames

6-10H
remember in old days when 6-10H was reaally popular like people went from 52-65 there (before rb)
even then most pubs only melee the minibosses. its alot faster to IW/dodge the counters and keep using your strongest skills. but people are scared

6-10L
most people are scared as hell of this stage.
usually the first and 3rd maps involve lure for a much faster time
i can understand why lots of people are scared. 4 projectile balls will kill you (600dmgeach) each mob does 200-400. your gathering like 50 mobs behind you and the only way itll work well is if everyone does it. if one person lags behind and draws aggro on a few monsters then for the most part you have failed the lure and you will have to run back which defeats the purpose.

so as you can see
alot of it has to do with a fear of failing which is why they play like they do
 
08-08-2009   #7 (permalink)
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Is anyone else bothered when you Stage with people that are phenomenal at PVP, yet suck immensely at staging? `-`

I never quite got that. You would think PVP would be more difficult.
 
08-08-2009   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Griever
Is anyone else bothered when you Stage with people that are phenomenal at PVP, yet suck immensely at staging? `-`

I never quite got that. You would think PVP would be more difficult.
I'd thought it'll be the other way around, hence this thread Oo. Maybe some hybrids can shed some opinions D:
 
08-08-2009   #9 (permalink)
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I don't think it's an issue of PvP assisting your staging skill (though it can help). I think the real issue is that there's no real learning curve to this game. What really bothers me is that these people who rebirth 3 times are still amazed that ice wall has aggro ability and that *gasp* provoke actually speeds things up. Perhaps if Ijji would change the description of Ice Wall to "CAN AGGRO SHIT" maybe people will get/ use it correctly. *as I'm writing this I remember ice wall is nothing in Myth... go figure*

Two things you really need to succeed in this game is 1. Rebirth skills and 2. The ability to somewhat dodge.
 
08-08-2009   #10 (permalink)
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While it's true that there are PvPers who are great at staging, there are also PvPers who are terrible at staging and vice versa.

In PvP, you only fight a small enemy that's faster than most, if not all mobs. Some players may be able to take their experience of avoiding attacks in PvP to countering bosses in staging, but at the same time other PvPers are not used to fighting more than one enemy at once, or fighting a single enemy with larger and more powerful AoE than Dainn's FoL, and DDB.

In stages, you always fight more than one enemy, and if you don't then it's always a single enemy that has stronger and larger AoEs than you. While some stagers can take their experience of luring and mobbing to baiting and defensive play in PvP, most other stagers can't adapt to the fact that there are enemies faster than them in PvP.

When you think about it, it really depends on what the stager or PvPer has been through. If a PvPer has only done 1v1s and kicks every Ryan, Kali, Yuki and spamming Dainn and Eir, then that person will probably not do too well in higher level raids or Myth (2). If a stager has only done the current version of History and Closed Mines where everything dies within a few hits or skills, then the stager probably wouldn't do too well in balanced PvP either.

Most of the people who do well in both PvP and stages have been playing for a while now, and they have been through Legend back when it really was hell and there were no rebirth skills to help, and when damage in PvP was bad enough to be unable to kill in a couple of combos.

I think it would be better if rebirth was restricted in stages as well, to where they are only usable on raids and myth. Otherwise, the learning curve will be forever be a learning cliff. The beginners will be forever stuck in that valley down below, unless the purposely restrict their resources and put themselves through hell.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 08-08-2009 at 11:25 AM.
 
08-08-2009   #11 (permalink)
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i don't think there's a correlation
and i only say that because i don't pvp and i'm doing just fine
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08-08-2009   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatThePhuc
i don't think there's a correlation
and i only say that because i don't pvp and i'm doing just fine
But you've been through more than what most stagers today have. You were there back when mobs had more HP, and bosses did far more damage.
 
08-08-2009   #13 (permalink)
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the biggest problem i guess
is that allm is pretty much forcing you to choose

before you could be high level (6x)
as well as good at both pvp and stage with a hybrid build
builds didnt even matter as much. i remember siegs pvp and stage builds were pretty much the same thing.

now if you stage too much because of level you get nerfed in pvp

the equipment u mostly get doesnt even work in pvp

your build has like 20 skill points into rebirth that doesnt work in pvp

for instance the ultimate stage title Great Hero of Legend
you cant even equip it until 75 when your pvp skills get NERFED
 
08-08-2009   #14 (permalink)
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thats not valid because theres always bad players. in OB people left and the ones left where mostly the good players. TFT had plenty of crap players till all the BS at end and most people quit and once again mostly good players where left and most crap players quit.

the ones that try to improve by getting better times,loose less life,use no cash or wanna be able to solo things will improve in stage. its same in pvp too. the crap players put on rules so they got better chance to win and justify their lack of skill.

Last edited by Kreig; 08-08-2009 at 01:34 PM.
 
08-08-2009   #15 (permalink)
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Many of the things you mentioned don't have to be specifically from PvP and can be learned through staging. However, it takes a while longer to do so.

@Leca: IMO, if it works for PvP, it works for stage. I have no points in RB. >_>
 
08-08-2009   #16 (permalink)
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I agree with everyone who said pvp speeds it up. When i bonus with my lime, i see ryans, dainns, limes, seigs who can't do that wake-up and dash thing (i dunno what its called D: ) to use the invinci. When all you have to do is watch one pvp match to learn it, or read this post.
 
08-08-2009   #17 (permalink)
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you dont need too learn it from pvp. you can learn it from seeing anyone do it or find it yourself by mistake. your over-hyping pvp. alot of good pvpers where 1st stagers that went pvp after they got bored of staging.
 
08-08-2009   #18 (permalink)
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true Oo....
 
08-08-2009   #19 (permalink)
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PvP will not mold someone into a better stager, it will however give them a quicker pace at learning the mechanics of their character(s). Since PvP is competitive and filled with a lot of good and bad players, the bad ones who are adamant about PvP will quickly delve themselves into the realm of mechanics. Stagers however (More so in today's Lunia than before) have it very easy and slow, they don't really see the need to improve their game when they are doing moderately fine with their massive damage outputs.

A PvPer will quickly learn most things about his/her character. That being: How and when all his skills are cancelable and how to make use of them effectively, how to minimize your openings to reduce a chance of damage taking, how to maintain your MP, all the basic strings and how and when they can be used, how to swiftly take care of enemies, how to land effective hits with your skills.

All these skills are things are learned in PVP at a much faster rate than in staging. While a stager may learn them with time, it will generally be a much more lengthy endeavor.

Using Dainn as an example. I often see Dainns that don't even know to skill cancel CBD and end up wasting time, CBD is a crap skill for damage if you don't cancel it. Along a similar line, I've seen Dainns who don't know how to autostep, which while a stager may be thinking "What do I need auto step for?" if you master it you'll find exactly why it's so much nicer to know. Small time reducers from comboing or canceling are huge helpers in stages and often leave you with less time to be open.

While with RB skills being dominators(Not a word) on all levels, I still think a stage is much more swiftly executed with a team that knows their characters well and doesn't just mindlessly spam. (Myth 1/2 being an exception (at least the stage itself) since it's entirely a battle of statistics over a battle of skill)

PvPers will stumble over stages at first if they really have not done them much at all during their course of the game but once they gather any information about the stage/enemies I'm sure the majority will quickly find great ways to retaliate.
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08-08-2009   #20 (permalink)
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you really cant say a pvper will learn quicker how to use their char. everyone learn differently fast. but in most cases its true.

i dont pvp myself(too laggy) but i thought pvp been made easier too. people die faster so you really dont need learn the advance combos etc?

people will go as far as they willing to go.
 

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