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08-08-2009   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreig
you really cant say a pvper will learn quicker how to use their char. everyone learn differently fast. but in most cases its true.

i dont pvp myself(too laggy) but i thought pvp been made easier too. people die faster so you really dont need learn the advance combos etc?

people will go as far as they willing to go.
When you go on to fight better characters, those advanced mechanics, REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY help. S Cancelling with Sieg, Auto step for Dainn, wall shifting, knowing how much height and how far an attack will go exactly are all cruicial.
 
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08-08-2009   #22 (permalink)
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I'm a stage player, and I don't Pvp. I know a lot of mechanics, but I don't practice the advanced moves. All I really know is how and what can be cancelled to make sure I'm able to avoid attacks and continue attacks of my own.

Since I don't Pvp, it took a bit of time to learn, but I've played since OB (when not a lot of stuff was cancelleable...), so all I did was learn the new stuff as it came out over the past year and a half.

I also learned a lot from reading forums and guides by others. Not everybody is going to visit forums like this or ijji, so they remain ignorant until some nice person (those hard to come by in a lot of MMOs ) comes along and teaches them a thing or two. Just today, I learned one of my guildies didn't know what magic defense did x.x (i told him what did afterwards tho xD)
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08-08-2009   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreig
you really cant say a pvper will learn quicker how to use their char. everyone learn differently fast. but in most cases its true.

i dont pvp myself(too laggy) but i thought pvp been made easier too. people die faster so you really dont need learn the advance combos etc?

people will go as far as they willing to go.
Individuality is a given to all debates on person X doing Y. It's not really necessary to state it. The majority is the idea here and for the majority this is true.

PvP hasn't really gotten easier, it's just there are more classes out now that have a much less difficult learning curve. Yuki, Kali, Ryan, Krieg and such are much easier to learn than the basic 3 and Tia as well. (Of course, individuality plays a roll here as well. Some people have a hard time playing Krieg while I have a hard time playing Tia. (Only class I really can't play even decent at all.)
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08-08-2009   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiegh
A PvPer will quickly learn most things about his/her character. That being: How and when all his skills are cancelable and how to make use of them effectively, how to minimize your openings to reduce a chance of damage taking, how to maintain your MP, all the basic strings and how and when they can be used, how to swiftly take care of enemies, how to land effective hits with your skills.

.
MOST anyways..
there's some ppl going to stages and fail and say something like "i'm a pvp build" like it's supposed to be an excuse for dying

more like.. if ur good in pvp ur most likely going to be good at staging since noticing patterns in pvp is harder than in stage.. but that doesn't make them automatically good if they haven't played the stage

good stages however are usually bad at pvp and would take a longer time to adapt to pvp as compared to a pvper adapting to stages

EDIT: actually i take that back...
"good" stagers are bad at pvp since staging became easier

Last edited by Lunar; 08-08-2009 at 08:25 PM.
 
08-10-2009   #25 (permalink)
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I decided to bump this in a more rational manner :/

I just feel that when dealing with harder stages , you need to play the game as if you are controlling all of the players in the room. Imagine you are playing with figurines and the boss atks in slow motion, how will you neutralize it? This is far different from 'I just need to look after myself' play style.

That's what 99% of the people lacks, a common understanding and a common plan.
 
08-10-2009   #26 (permalink)
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There is a difference between a stager and a pvper, a pvper would have much more mobility than the stagers and die less but probablity will deal lower dmg. The stager would be much slower but since some of them are reckless, they might just rush in dash some dmg get hit and take 1/2 bar or lose a life inexchange for like a few dots of dmg. There really is no difference but in this case, pvpers can adapt to staging faster than stagers adapting to pvp.
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08-10-2009   #27 (permalink)
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and now again over-hyping pvpers. theres nothing say pvpers will be better then stagers in staging. why do you think stagers will be worse in dodging? why would they be slower? they done the stage a billion times i think they know what to do unless they farming mindlessly and not caring about doing it effective.

dont make it sound like because people stage instead of pvping that they are worse in using their char effective. true you will learn how to use your char faster in pvp if your willing to learn but theres nothing saying a pvper will be better in dodging in stage then a stager who done the stage alot more times.

you dont need catch your enemy, no mind games, no combo(myth and if you can combo they die in like 5 air hits) needed in stage so i dont see why pvpers would be so much better in using their char in stage. you dont use most things you learn in pvp in stage. stagers only need learn teamwork if they wanna do good runs.

Last edited by Kreig; 08-10-2009 at 10:42 AM.
 
08-10-2009   #28 (permalink)
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^I don't see why what you're arguing.

imo, if you want to be playing the game to the fullest, you'll have to experience both sides, stage AND PvP. And yes, I think stagers CAN get something from PvP if they ever try it.

In PvP, you learn what the skills your opponent do and how to counter them, using their openings to strike. Things like timing DFIST's/other skills' invincible frames through attacks(bringing the boss's HP bar down during an attack instead of running away), rushing your enemy with a buff like rage/mdef/hide, how to aim things like Blow(time attacks so they hit where the monsters are going). And since A LOT of the player's attacks are similar to the monsters'(or the other way around), learning how to counter them can contribute to faster/easier/more efficient runs when you're doing a stage, and you can also help our your teammate whenever they need it(protecting Dainns when they're casting meteor/fire dragon, etc).

imo, a good stager knows all the stage mechanics(mobbing, luring, aggroing), every single monster's attacks plus their counters, and how to use them effectively(through teamwork, etc). While they can learn the counters in stage if they see someone use it, sometimes(because players don't have all the skills) they can get it faster through PvP, where they will have to use those counters in every match they play.
 
08-10-2009   #29 (permalink)
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what im saying is that a pvper wont make it auto > stager. i never pvp(way to laggy) and im confident in my staging skill. and i already use all invi skills i got and i learnt it just staging and reading forums. i never had to pvp to learn how to do the best of my char in my huge lag. but meh i can just hope for a EU server so i can pvp in it and see how much ''harder'' it is.
 
08-10-2009   #30 (permalink)
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Well yeah, if all you know is PvP, you probably won't do very well in stage.

But the OP is saying that maybe a bit of PvP can benefit normal stage-only people, and I believe that stagers that are experienced in PvP can do better than a stager on the same level of stage gameplay with little to no PvP experience.

Last edited by Cookies; 08-10-2009 at 01:13 PM.
 
08-10-2009   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreig
true you will learn how to use your char faster in pvp if your willing to learn.
Thank you for proving the only point I was trying to state.

We can't use ourselves as examples. So let's make an example using two non-existent people. Two new players join Lunia, they both get to about level 70, RB and do it again. After that's done one decides to go into PvP and does so everyday for say... 3 weeks. The other player goes through stages for 3 weeks.

Now there is an update, a new unreleased stage is released. Both players decide to try it despite both having no experience with the stage. The stager is used to memorization and patterns of going through repetition. The PvPer is used to adapting to new styles and being cautious about new surroundings.

Who do you think will fair better? A person used to the previous situation being repeated or someone more focused on adaption?

This is entirely a false example as it's entirely an assumption that these players would turn out this way. However, with how absurd RB skills are you cannot tell me that a new player who only stages would develop the character skills he requires for dominating a new stage on his first go. They have it painfully easy and mastering a stage is merely a matter of trial and error. (If you're soloing it, teams will always cause variations of scenarios.)

From my experience with new players, I can honestly say that the average terrible PvPer is at least a little better than the average terrible stager. (I still see too many AAAAA siegs in stages to ever give them credit for anything)

Still, it's entirely about the individual but I believe whole-heartily that a player who focuses more on PvP in the Lunia of today will develop much quicker and in a more various way than one who devotes himself to stages. Especially with RB skills and Myth being so dominate. (Myth takes no skills. If it's any aid into how easy it is, I read a book while pressing AAAS over and over again until I got to the boss where I just dodged all the painfully slow attacks to win.)
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08-10-2009   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookies
I believe that stagers that are experienced in PvP can do better than a stager with little to no PvP experience.
you sure about that?
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08-10-2009   #33 (permalink)
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Well, I guess it is highly dependent on the person and if they're willing to learn.
And I did say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookies
imo, a good stager knows all the stage mechanics(mobbing, luring, aggroing), every single monster's attacks plus their counters, and how to use them effectively(through teamwork, etc). While they can learn the counters in stage if they see someone use it, sometimes(because players don't have all the skills) they can get it faster through PvP, where they will have to use those counters in every match they play.
Note: these don't apply to Myth stages(except raids I guess) where there are a limited variation of attacks and mobs.

oh and I'm not saying that a PvPer is better than a stager. I'm just saying if there are 2 people that are on the same level of gameplay, if one decides to try out PvP and gets decent at it while the other one refuses to, that person will probably do better than the other one.

Last edited by Cookies; 08-10-2009 at 01:11 PM.
 
08-10-2009   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookies
Well, I guess it is highly dependent on the person and if they're willing to learn.
And I did say this:


Note: these don't apply to Myth stages(except raids I guess) where there are a limited variation of attacks and mobs.
Mobbing still applies to Myth sometimes, as does knowing a monster's counter attack (albeit... one monster's counter attack)

Knowing a monster's attacks still applies to Foriel (it actually still applies to Lunia too, but only slightly. People more new to Lunia might know to stay behind her, but you can tell they're still new to it because they keep getting caught in Lunia's boomerangs)
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08-10-2009   #35 (permalink)
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-shrug-

Except in Myth monsters' attacks are really limited(deer, talman, griffin, and geogriff(except bosses since clearly people just don't get it sometimes no matter how many times they're hit with them), and most of the time(cough griffins cough) mobs either are stunlocked from all the skills spams, or die too quickly because you have high STR.
It is the only place where one stat determines your ability to do speed runs.

Last edited by Cookies; 08-10-2009 at 01:32 PM.
 
08-10-2009   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookies
-shrug-

Except in Myth monsters' attacks are really limited(deer, talman, griffin, and geogriff(except bosses since clearly people just don't get it sometimes no matter how many times they're hit with them), and most of the time(cough griffins cough) mobs either are stunlocked from all the skills spams, or die too quickly because you have high STR.
It is the only place where one stat determines your ability to do speed runs.
That's why when I said knowing monster's attacks apply to Foriel, I did NOT say that knowing monsters' attacks applies to anywhere else.

Mobbing abiility still applies sometimes. Some people just seem to insist on pushing individual monsters into all the wrong directions for some reason.
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08-10-2009   #37 (permalink)
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Eh, sry to everyone.

A good stager learns things faster if he play WoW . Seriously, most of the people are still playing like headless chicken. It doesnt matter if you are able to dodge A to Z attacks, if you can run like a cheetah with all the S-cancel/canceling animations. That's like the basic things to even consider and that's has almost no significance to how effective you need to deal with a stage.

How about for a change , consider

- The size of the boss fight room
- Does the boss appear before you or vice versa ?

Now, tell me where can you learn all these from ?
 
08-10-2009   #38 (permalink)
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I'm a stager but, better than some pubs and not quite up there...I try to PvP but it obliterates me as an FS healer because most of the time, being an eir is quite ineffective in PvP (again it varies) and stage to some extent. PvP just makes me more angry than anything else. Unfortunately, soloing is one of my biggest weaknesses.

I don't think you can learn boss rooms from anything else, boss rooms and the boss itself just take practice. Though in myth there are variations (ie: amount of magic squares need to press on).

I feel that some of skills are also developed in a teamwork situation as well when it comes to chaining skills together to make it more effective. Just don't do anything to hurt your party members (and not talking about blesses as those are a given).

Apparently, some do not understand what aggro-ing means still. `-` I thought it's common throughout many MMOs but I guess not.

Well when it comes to 5-10L, I find that people die more at L. Lir than anything else...I personally think that L. Lir isn't too bad but it's quite absurd to have near 3k HP to barely survive a hit. Is L. Lir something that is luck or is it people just have a fear of dying at her?
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Last edited by Allea; 08-10-2009 at 08:57 PM.
 
08-10-2009   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allea
I'm a stager but, better than some pubs and not quite up there...I try to PvP but it obliterates me as an FS healer because most of the time, being an eir is quite ineffective in PvP (again it varies) and stage to some extent. PvP just makes me more angry than anything else. Unfortunately, soloing is one of my biggest weaknesses.

I don't think you can learn boss rooms from anything else, boss rooms and the boss itself just take practice. Though in myth there are variations (ie: amount of magic squares need to press on).

I feel that some of skills are also developed in a teamwork situation as well when it comes to chaining skills together to make it more effective. Just don't do anything to hurt your party members (and not talking about blesses as those are a given).

Apparently, some do not understand what aggro-ing means still. `-` I thought it's common throughout many MMOs but I guess not.

Well when it comes to 5-10L, I find that people die more at L. Lir than anything else...I personally think that L. Lir isn't too bad but it's quite absurd to have near 3k HP to barely survive a hit. Is L. Lir something that is luck or is it people just have a fear of dying at her?
very.. ppl get scared of dying from L lir.. which in turn makes them keep their distance, which in turn allows them to spam more dmg which in term steals agro and SPIN OF DEATH where everyone dies

same applies to soldin ppl run away and then die or kill the person that knows wut he's actually doing

an example where pvp and keeping ur distance kills u
although it also kills u in pvp since they're not agressive enough

but stagers would probably stand there and die anyways due to easy L tarask

Last edited by Lunar; 08-10-2009 at 09:27 PM.
 
08-10-2009   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar
very.. ppl get scared of dying from L lir.. which in turn makes them keep their distance, which in turn allows them to spam more dmg which in term steals agro and SPIN OF DEATH where everyone dies

same applies to soldin ppl run away and then die or kill the person that knows wut he's actually doing

an example where pvp and keeping ur distance kills u
although it also kills u in pvp since they're not agressive enough

but stagers would probably stand there and die anyways due to easy L tarask
With stages, you gotta figure out how the bosses attacks, specifically, behave. After almost of year since its release, I've just now realized (while soloing with my kali), that all of Lir's annoying homing and curving attacks only focus on what's in front of her. Her death spin and purple orbs don't home or curve at all if everyone is behind her. When you got 4 people running around all willy nilly, spamming and such, it's hard to notice something subtle like that. I'd assume L Lir would be easier if everybody knew such bits of info (I don't even try to go 5-10L, because I hate her).
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