ggFTW

MMORPG Gamer Community


Go Back   ggFTW Forum > Off Topic > Life & Relationships

Vindictus
Looking for a new MMO?

Try 

Vindictus

Rating:  

8.2

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
08-02-2010   #1 (permalink)
C.I.A. Rad Bromance
Torikakae's Avatar
Games
Trickster OnlineAuditionGrand ChasePangya
Awards Event WinnerMoM AwardWandering Eye
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In An Epic Battle
Posts: 5,216
Blog Entries: 17
iTrader: (12)
Torikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Torikakae Send a message via Yahoo to Torikakae Send a message via Skype™ to Torikakae
IGN: Torikakae
Class: Buffalo to_buffalo
Level: 400
Guild: Mirage Coordinator
Default How To Solve Illegal Immigration

This has been out for a long while but I just recently discovered it. You may or may not agree with the points, but you have to admit that the points made have strong supportive facts in them.

So why is this in Life & Relationships? Well basically, it's almost always what I read about in international news. I'm not an American, I know very little about America, so I believe that it's best to see issues concerning it from all possible side. But even for Americans, I don't think you'll hear this side of the story much, or if at all.

Please don't simply disregard this merely as a cute video or political propaganda. You'll learn something about people, history, and even about yourself and how you'll view the world around you. I know I have.

__________________
Click here for more Buffalo hotness <3
PM me for password ^_~ 2000+ Buff pics!! ~ 07-24-11

~Thank you Shnao for the siggie~
 
Get rid of this ad by registering for our community.
08-02-2010   #2 (permalink)
Kat
how dreadful!
Kat's Avatar
Games
Dragon NestTrickster OnlineMabinogiEden Eternal
Awards Treasure Hunter
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 383
iTrader: (11)
Kat is a name known to allKat is a name known to allKat is a name known to allKat is a name known to allKat is a name known to allKat is a name known to all
Default

... I've been trying to find a 'good' way to reply to this...
In my eyes, it's still propaganda.

We're talking about illegal immigration now. What this video does is put blame on the settlers from Europe (a long time ago, that is). I don't believe the Native Americans had any real, developed government, nor were they as civilized as the Europeans. But I don't have the right to say what people did hundreds of years ago was right, because it wasn't. That information was put in there so people couldn't argue. But right now, it is irrelevant.

"Americans are being told that we are in danger of losing not only our jobs, but we're also in danger of losing our language, and losing our culture. Our security. Everything. And it's all the fault of those people who are not us. They are the 'other'."
Use a dramatic tone and bias words, and suddenly all of the things 'we are told', are false.
I live in Arizona, and I'm sure most people have heard about the new illegal immigration law. ... Nevermind, I'm not even going to bring that up, because there is too much biased propaganda against it. "THIS IS SO RACIST!!! ITS SO BAD ITS GONNA BE JUST LYK THE HOLOCAUST OMGOMGOMGOGM" No.
But where I live, yeah, illegal immigration is a problem. Right now the number of people without a job is fairly high, and illegal immigrants are holding onto some of these jobs. There are people who say "We should be thanking the illegal immigrants-- they're taking the bad jobs we don't want." Well, right now, when legal citizens need jobs, there's very few.

I was lucky enough to have a great history teacher, allowing us to spend a large amount of time having class discussions about current events. He was an immigrant. A legal immigrant from Spain. The reason his family, and many others wanted to come to America was to start a new life. Sure, they could hold onto a few traditions from their previous home, but they were expected-- and excited-- to learn English and adopt our culture.
We shouldn't worry about "losing our language", should we? I'm aware not all states have the problem with Spanish being spoken more than English. Now I'm expected to learn Spanish. Why? I probably won't be able to get a decent job without being bilingual, and if I want to go to the store or get something to eat, chances are they're not going to understand what I'm saying. Isn't that racist? No. Sometimes I have to repeat myself three times or use exaggerated hand gestures because there's a young mexican girl at the check-out who didn't bother learning English.

America is considered the melting pot, right? We gladly take immigrants. If they're legal.
And it's pretty funny how America always seems to be the bad guy-- but countries like Mexico are so screwed up, their people run to America illegally. Maybe shortening the process to come here legally would help. Maybe.

This is pretty long, so I'll just hit one more point:
Racism. We're so racist against Mexicans. They're not the only illegal immigrants. We're just mean Americans picking on one group.
Mexico borders America. You're more likely to find an illegal Mexican immigrant than... say an illegal German immigrant. You're more likely to hear "SPANISH IS THE NEW ENGLISH" than "FRENCH IS THE NEW ENGLISH".
.... The video and Daisy's voice kind of bummed me out, so I'll just stop here.

kthx.
/long post it long.


@Tori:
Quote:
You'll learn something about people, history, and even about yourself and how you'll view the world around you. I know I have.
Like you stated before, you are not American, and most of us know this history, since we have learned about it since.. the third or fourth grade.
The reason we don't hear that side is because most of us find it irrelevant to our -current- Illegal Immigration discussions.


Last edited by Kat; 08-02-2010 at 12:56 PM.
 
08-02-2010   #3 (permalink)
C.I.A. Rad Bromance
Torikakae's Avatar
Games
Trickster OnlineAuditionGrand ChasePangya
Awards Event WinnerMoM AwardWandering Eye
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In An Epic Battle
Posts: 5,216
Blog Entries: 17
iTrader: (12)
Torikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Torikakae Send a message via Yahoo to Torikakae Send a message via Skype™ to Torikakae
IGN: Torikakae
Class: Buffalo to_buffalo
Level: 400
Guild: Mirage Coordinator
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons
... I've been trying to find a 'good' way to reply to this...
In my eyes, it's still propaganda.
Perhaps. But in discussing current issues where one is forced to make a stand, what isn't "propaganda" by your terms and defenitions?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons
We're talking about illegal immigration now. What this video does is put blame on the settlers from Europe (a long time ago, that is). I don't believe the Native Americans had any real, developed government, nor were they as civilized as the Europeans. But I don't have the right to say what people did hundreds of years ago was right, because it wasn't. That information was put in there so people couldn't argue. But right now, it is irrelevant.
I can't say that I agree with that. History, though actual events may differ, shows us that the ideologies, beliefs, paradigms, ways of thinking, are actually very similar. Perhaps the who, when, and where are irrelevant (not sure about the "who" part), but the how's and why's are very relevant.

And regarding "civilization". Is being "European-ly civilized" the correct way of life? That it should be the way of life? That everything else is inferior? I don't exactly understand what you were trying to point out there. Could you please elaborate more?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons
"Americans are being told that we are in danger of losing not only our jobs, but we're also in danger of losing our language, and losing our culture. Our security. Everything. And it's all the fault of those people who are not us. They are the 'other'."
Use a dramatic tone and bias words, and suddenly all of the things 'we are told', are false.
I live in Arizona, and I'm sure most people have heard about the new illegal immigration law. ... Nevermind, I'm not even going to bring that up, because there is too much biased propaganda against it. "THIS IS SO RACIST!!! ITS SO BAD ITS GONNA BE JUST LYK THE HOLOCAUST OMGOMGOMGOGM" No.
But where I live, yeah, illegal immigration is a problem. Right now the number of people without a job is fairly high, and illegal immigrants are holding onto some of these jobs. There are people who say "We should be thanking the illegal immigrants-- they're taking the bad jobs we don't want." Well, right now, when legal citizens need jobs, there's very few.
So...what is your definition of "legal immigrants" and "illegal immigrants" again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons
I was lucky enough to have a great history teacher, allowing us to spend a large amount of time having class discussions about current events. He was an immigrant. A legal immigrant from Spain. The reason his family, and many others wanted to come to America was to start a new life. Sure, they could hold onto a few traditions from their previous home, but they were expected-- and excited-- to learn English and adopt our culture.
We shouldn't worry about "losing our language", should we? I'm aware not all states have the problem with Spanish being spoken more than English. Now I'm expected to learn Spanish. Why? I probably won't be able to get a decent job without being bilingual, and if I want to go to the store or get something to eat, chances are they're not going to understand what I'm saying. Isn't that racist? No. Sometimes I have to repeat myself three times or use exaggerated hand gestures because there's a young mexican girl at the check-out who didn't bother learning English.
So....it's the "illegal immigrants" fault that the world is changing, becoming more globalized as it were, or becoming more competitive? That you have to learn the language, culture, and people of other origin? I wouldn't get a decent job ANYWHERE if I never learned English. And as my 4th language, I think I'm doing pretty well with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons
America is considered the melting pot, right? We gladly take immigrants. If they're legal.
And it's pretty funny how America always seems to be the bad guy-- but countries like Mexico are so screwed up, their people run to America illegally. Maybe shortening the process to come here legally would help. Maybe.
True, this world is filled up with really messed up people running the show. But the blunder of one doesn't lessen the blunder of another...in comparison, maybe. In measurement...not really...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons
This is pretty long, so I'll just hit one more point:
Racism. We're so racist against Mexicans. They're not the only illegal immigrants. We're just mean Americans picking on one group.
Mexico borders America. You're more likely to find an illegal Mexican immigrant than... say an illegal German immigrant. You're more likely to hear "SPANISH IS THE NEW ENGLISH" than "FRENCH IS THE NEW ENGLISH".
.... The video and Daisy's voice kind of bummed me out, so I'll just stop here.

kthx.
/long post it long.
Uhh.....I dunno this one so I'll just agree that Daisy's voice is...melancholic~


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons

@Tori:

Like you stated before, you are not American, and most of us know this history, since we have learned about it since.. the third or fourth grade.
The reason we don't hear that side is because most of us find it irrelevant to our -current- Illegal Immigration discussions.

Yes, true that I am not an American. But that's actually an advantage for me. As American kids, you are instilled with the values such as patriotism, love of your country. So in that sense, what you learn should also instill those values, even if it means downplaying the not-so-good parts regarding your own history.

I am that way too. As a Filipino, I thought I knew Philippine history so well. About the heroes, the battles, the glories, etc.... It has been taught in schools since elementary to high school. However, what I know is only a small portion of it. You may say what I learned is a mere semblance of the truth. How much of the bloodshed was downplayed? How many nameless people were killed for "progress"? Why do I only read about gruesome events in the perspective of foreigners looking at my own backyard?

I find it sad that a lot of people find it "irrelevant", when I haven't heard of a single dispute (yet) against what is transpiring today is a mirror of the past...
__________________
Click here for more Buffalo hotness <3
PM me for password ^_~ 2000+ Buff pics!! ~ 07-24-11

~Thank you Shnao for the siggie~

Last edited by Torikakae; 08-02-2010 at 01:21 PM.
 
08-02-2010   #4 (permalink)
too much effort
WhatThePho's Avatar
Games
SD Gundam Online: Capsule FighterAtlantica OnlineGlobal AgendaUrban Rivals
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,815
iTrader: (2)
WhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to beholdWhatThePho is a splendid one to behold
IGN: WhatThePho
Class: Maniac
Guild: Mooglets v1.1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloons

Like you stated before, you are not American, and most of us know this history, since we have learned about it since.. the third or fourth grade.
.

that's what i thought about texans.
__________________
Good taste is a dying breed.
 
08-05-2010   #5 (permalink)
Take it easy!
Special
Adun's Avatar
Games
World of Warcraft
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,308
Blog Entries: 35
iTrader: (0)
Adun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud of
Guild: [JW], Kirameki
Default

No matter how much you deny that this video is political propaganda, it is. Why? This is where the shit hit the fan:

Americans in their current state are the ones who populate America. Hundreds of years ago, they (edit: Europeans) forcefully took the land from the Native Americans. Using this to brand today's Americans as "illegal immigrants" doesn't change the fact that there are illegal immigrants crossing the border without forgoing the legal process of immigration into America today. In fact, that's plain instigation and it's hardly a valid point; this is where the video went from informative to propaganda. The Native Americans, no matter how developed or underdeveloped they were, did not have set laws or restrictions against illegal immigrants. That's way ahead of their time. What you would get instead is an arrow in your head and SCALPED because they would consider you an invader (uncivilized). Either that or you would be carried to their tribe and worshiped as a god (underdeveloped).

They're completely skipping the part where people fought and killed each other on American soil to establish government (aka the US Civil War), and from there America started to evolve to what it is today. Nobody from back then is alive today to pay for what happened during European colonization, but neither are today's Americans responsible for that in the year 2010. As far as I am concerned, today's Americans are the ones that populate America, regardless of who was here first. America has laws, regulations, and procedure for immigrants to follow when considering to move to America. Native Americans did not. Of course it's irrelevant. Nothing to see here folks.

Anybody who spreads misinformation like "illegal immigrants are sucking up our profits, stealing our jobs, raping our women, etc." are all scare tactics to make people fight rampantly against illegal immigration, whether or not their decisions are going to be educated ones. In my humble opinion, the illegal immigrants ARE doing these things to some extent as America is going through an economic crisis and illegal immigration is the last thing you would want. However, it's hardly as exaggerated as they make it out to be. The life of an illegal immigrant is tough, and it's practically just as hard to immigrate to America legally. I personally would make the current immigration laws more lenient, that way the immigrants can get better jobs and educate themselves.

What this video doesn't address though are the illegal immigrants who honestly don't give a shit. I've delivered pizza to an American Army barracks full of immigrants, but we all know there are some there for the military benefits provided to them, not to actually serve the country. For people with a strong sense of patriotism, they do not want these people in their military. I couldn't care less though because I was pretty much in the same boat as them and I know there are Americans who join the military with the same mindset. Therefore it seems that this point is moot. HOWEVER, this is averted by the illegal immigrants who go to America to leech, rob, steal, loot, kill, pillage, and aim for global domination. /exaggeration This kind of mindset means they are not interested in being American whatsoever and it makes the patriotic people go batshit insane over it. Therefore, it can be considered in a different way as a type of invasion, since they don't want to learn English, they don't want to learn American history, they don't care about being American, they might as well burn the American flag and get away with it.

The last thing I have to say here is that the presentation of this video was horrible. I'm alright with fursonas discussing politics but the female cat's VO sounds like a 15 year old girl with no emotions and the male sounds like a guy that's 10 years older than her and follows her around because he's a pedo. All the while, neither of them hardly have a clue what the hell they are talking about.
__________________

Last edited by Adun; 08-05-2010 at 12:43 PM.
 
08-06-2010   #6 (permalink)
C.I.A. Rad Bromance
Torikakae's Avatar
Games
Trickster OnlineAuditionGrand ChasePangya
Awards Event WinnerMoM AwardWandering Eye
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In An Epic Battle
Posts: 5,216
Blog Entries: 17
iTrader: (12)
Torikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Torikakae Send a message via Yahoo to Torikakae Send a message via Skype™ to Torikakae
IGN: Torikakae
Class: Buffalo to_buffalo
Level: 400
Guild: Mirage Coordinator
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
No matter how much you deny that this video is political propaganda, it is. Why? This is where the shit hit the fan:

I didn't deny that it may/is a political propaganda. I just asked that you don't treat is merely as a political propaganda. If you prefer labeling it, you can call it a "far-left".

There's this stigma that if it's labeled as a propaganda, then the contents are completely biased and have no merit, and that it speaks no truth or something like that. What I meant was that regardless of what the aim may be, that you at least pay attention to the truths behind it (or if you don't think it's truthful, present factual counter-arguments against it). Personally, that's what I am looking for too.

And speaking of propagandas, in discussing events (wars and turmoil especially), what statement isn't a propaganda? I mean, there will always be at least two opposite sides of the story. Like....maybe take your history lessons about WWII. Americans pay great homage to the brave soldiers who died in Pearl Harbor, but only leave cliff notes regarding the thousands of Japanese civilians who were killed when those bombs were dropped into their cities. I never read a Japanese history book but I think the opposite is true over there...maybe. Wouldn't you call that..."propaganda", with the aim of instilling patriotism and love of country in people?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
Americans in their current state are the ones who populate America. Hundreds of years ago, they (edit: Europeans) forcefully took the land from the Native Americans. Using this to brand today's Americans as "illegal immigrants" doesn't change the fact that there are illegal immigrants crossing the border without forgoing the legal process of immigration into America today. In fact, that's plain instigation and it's hardly a valid point; this is where the video went from informative to propaganda. The Native Americans, no matter how developed or underdeveloped they were, did not have set laws or restrictions against illegal immigrants. That's way ahead of their time. What you would get instead is an arrow in your head and SCALPED because they would consider you an invader (uncivilized). Either that or you would be carried to their tribe and worshiped as a god (underdeveloped).
Yes, that is correct. The state of America now isn't desirable for many. But does that, in any way, lessen what the settlers did to the natives? Paralleling what happened before, the settlers then are the "illegal immigrants" of that time. But why were they allowed to stay? Why should the "illegal immigrants" then and the "illegal immigrants" now have different outcomes, if they're both "illegal immigrants" in principle?

Regarding Native Americans being as brutal as you say they were, are you sure that's the truth? Or is this one of those "propagandas" the settlers used before. If you take a look at the tribes of the world during that era, something doesn't add up. Native tribes during that era engaged in trade, agriculture, arts, and upheld strong values of family, kinship, and reverence to living things. Any society that blindly attacks others different from their own wouldn't be able to survive. It's hard for me to believe that natives at that time are that ruthless...

And something about the laws. When "America" as we know it and its laws were drafted and ratified, it said something about land didn't it? But why didn't they acknowledge that the land they stand on wasn't really theirs, but taken from the natives? If they did, then wouldn't it be proper to give it back to the true owners of the land? Is this one of those "to the victor goes the spoils" types of scenarios? If that is, then was it the right thing to do? If this was all just a struggle of power and wealth, then....is what is happening right now too a mirror of this struggle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
They're completely skipping the part where people fought and killed each other on American soil to establish government (aka the US Civil War), and from there America started to evolve to what it is today. Nobody from back then is alive today to pay for what happened during European colonization, but neither are today's Americans responsible for that in the year 2010. As far as I am concerned, today's Americans are the ones that populate America, regardless of who was here first. America has laws, regulations, and procedure for immigrants to follow when considering to move to America. Native Americans did not. Of course it's irrelevant. Nothing to see here folks.

It is true that much blood was shed by people who call this land their home...but I'm wondering....is that really a good reason to claim it? I mean, if it was really stolen land then, regardless of who fought to defend it, isn't stolen land still stolen land?

This is the way I see it. Imagine a young mother and her newborn baby. Let's say there was this woman who stole the baby from her cradle and ran. This woman, however, raised this baby like her own. Years later, the police caught this woman who stole the child. The woman argued: "I raised her like she was my own! I put my blood, sweat, tears, life, and all my love for her. I deserve to be with her! She's my daughter!!". Is that woman entitled to keep the child, or is she suppose to give her back to her real mother? That's the dilemma I see, though if I missed a point or you have another idea, please fell free to tell.

Regarding about "today's America". Yes you do have a point about that. I do agree that descendants shouldn't be made to pay for the crimes of their forefathers. But then why are Americans treating these immigrants the way they don't want to be treated? A child of an illegal immigrant who was born in the USA, grew up in the USA, and knew only of the people, culture, and life in the USA, be forced to be kicked out of the only life and land he knew? Not to mention, if Americans really acknowledge their history regarding settlers and Native Americans, why do they refuse to see that Americans before, and immigrants now, are the same? I mean, isn't that unfair? America descended from immigrants whom built that country from the ground after all... It's just something I don't understand, and having a hard time justifying.

About the law thing. Laws are only effective when the people agree upon upholding it. Laws are nothing by themselves (For example, look how many times powerful nations have disregarded the UN Charter?). During that time, I don't think Native Americans considered the land "theirs" per se. More likely, they considered the land to be of the land, for everyone who walks on it. Something like "No man can claim what he cannot outlive", as people then were more in tune with nature and gods and stuff. So a difference in rules is to be expected. But then, rules have principles behind them, right? So I would like to ask. What principles exist in the current US "laws" about immigration? And are these principles.....fair?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
Anybody who spreads misinformation like "illegal immigrants are sucking up our profits, stealing our jobs, raping our women, etc." are all scare tactics to make people fight rampantly against illegal immigration, whether or not their decisions are going to be educated ones. In my humble opinion, the illegal immigrants ARE doing these things to some extent as America is going through an economic crisis and illegal immigration is the last thing you would want. However, it's hardly as exaggerated as they make it out to be. The life of an illegal immigrant is tough, and it's practically just as hard to immigrate to America legally. I personally would make the current immigration laws more lenient, that way the immigrants can get better jobs and educate themselves.

That's an interesting view. A more lenient law would lessen the problem for everyone. Though my limited imagination is having a hard time picturing how that may be. Would you care to explain more?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
What this video doesn't address though are the illegal immigrants who honestly don't give a shit. I've delivered pizza to an American Army barracks full of immigrants, but we all know there are some there for the military benefits provided to them, not to actually serve the country. For people with a strong sense of patriotism, they do not want these people in their military. I couldn't care less though because I was pretty much in the same boat as them and I know there are Americans who join the military with the same mindset. Therefore it seems that this point is moot. HOWEVER, this is averted by the illegal immigrants who go to America to leech, rob, steal, loot, kill, pillage, and aim for global domination. /exaggeration This kind of mindset means they are not interested in being American whatsoever and it makes the patriotic people go batshit insane over it. Therefore, it can be considered in a different way as a type of invasion, since they don't want to learn English, they don't want to learn American history, they don't care about being American, they might as well burn the American flag and get away with it.

Hmm...I find it interesting that you would use the word "invasion". But in a way, America (and really most of the world's "superpowers") have been "invading" other countries for years. One example on the top of my head is how the superpowers established control of the world's money flow after WWII. I could probably say something about the recent wars but I don't know much about those.

And isn't that kind of unpatriotic mindset....present in every nationality in some degree? Even among the general populace?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
The last thing I have to say here is that the presentation of this video was horrible. I'm alright with fursonas discussing politics but the female cat's VO sounds like a 15 year old girl with no emotions and the male sounds like a guy that's 10 years older than her and follows her around because he's a pedo. All the while, neither of them hardly have a clue what the hell they are talking about.
I have to disagree. The reason I posted the video here is because I find their points interesting and thought-provoking. They deal with obscure historical facts, as well as perspectives generally hidden/ignored by the masses. They present researched facts (though perhaps not -all- the facts in it's entirety, but who can do that within 30 minutes?) that is at the very least thought-provoking, that makes you critically rethink about what you know and what you think you know (if what you know is the truth, then no problem, right?). Critical thinking is unfortunately missing in most people, who generally just accept the information presented to them...
__________________
Click here for more Buffalo hotness <3
PM me for password ^_~ 2000+ Buff pics!! ~ 07-24-11

~Thank you Shnao for the siggie~
 
08-06-2010   #7 (permalink)
Take it easy!
Special
Adun's Avatar
Games
World of Warcraft
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,308
Blog Entries: 35
iTrader: (0)
Adun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud of
Guild: [JW], Kirameki
Default

***Disclaimer: The presentation of this post is in a total train wreck. I blame all this nested quoting.***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
I didn't deny that it may/is a political propaganda. I just asked that you don't treat is merely as a political propaganda. If you prefer labeling it, you can call it a "far-left".

There's this stigma that if it's labeled as a propaganda, then the contents are completely biased and have no merit, and that it speaks no truth or something like that. What I meant was that regardless of what the aim may be, that you at least pay attention to the truths behind it (or if you don't think it's truthful, present factual counter-arguments against it). Personally, that's what I am looking for too.

And speaking of propagandas, in discussing events (wars and turmoil especially), what statement isn't a propaganda? I mean, there will always be at least two opposite sides of the story. Like....maybe take your history lessons about WWII. Americans pay great homage to the brave soldiers who died in Pearl Harbor, but only leave cliff notes regarding the thousands of Japanese civilians who were killed when those bombs were dropped into their cities. I never read a Japanese history book but I think the opposite is true over there...maybe. Wouldn't you call that..."propaganda", with the aim of instilling patriotism and love of country in people?
Sorry, I misread the OP as "It's not propaganda." I can consider it as thought-provoking, as you put it.

Debates where people throw facts, quotes, and their icons at each other isn't a real debate. That's using other people to speak for you. I like to keep it real. So I won't be doing that in this post. This doesn't make my arguments any more true, but I merely want to voice my opinion and I accomplish just that. I'm not hellbent on altering people's beliefs. I can respect your opinion and agree to disagree. That is all I want to do. An addendum to my post could be: I apologize if I present things too bluntly and it offends you.

Nationalism makes people step on each other. This is humanity. Nothing new. Americans can glorify themselves as war heroes as much as Iraq can say their terrorists are heroes of Allah and Americans are idiots. Anything goes. It's up to the people to do their own research and take everything with a grain of salt to achieve higher levels of intellect, avoiding the fate of becoming a puppet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
Yes, that is correct. The state of America now isn't desirable for many. But does that, in any way, lessen what the settlers did to the natives? Paralleling what happened before, the settlers then are the "illegal immigrants" of that time. But why were they allowed to stay? Why should the "illegal immigrants" then and the "illegal immigrants" now have different outcomes, if they're both "illegal immigrants" in principle?

Regarding Native Americans being as brutal as you say they were, are you sure that's the truth? Or is this one of those "propagandas" the settlers used before. If you take a look at the tribes of the world during that era, something doesn't add up. Native tribes during that era engaged in trade, agriculture, arts, and upheld strong values of family, kinship, and reverence to living things. Any society that blindly attacks others different from their own wouldn't be able to survive. It's hard for me to believe that natives at that time are that ruthless...

And something about the laws. When "America" as we know it and its laws were drafted and ratified, it said something about land didn't it? But why didn't they acknowledge that the land they stand on wasn't really theirs, but taken from the natives? If they did, then wouldn't it be proper to give it back to the true owners of the land? Is this one of those "to the victor goes the spoils" types of scenarios? If that is, then was it the right thing to do? If this was all just a struggle of power and wealth, then....is what is happening right now too a mirror of this struggle?
I did not intend to alleviate blame on the American colonists when they forcefully took the land from the Native Americans. All I am saying here is that today's Americans are not responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago. There is nobody alive today to take the blame and suffer the consequences. You can't damn today's generation of Americans because of the sins of their forefathers. The population of the USA is far greater than it was in the days of colonization. It's far greater than the amount of Native Americans that lived here before. The price you are asking for far outweighs the reality. Are you serious about this?

Even if this would happen, how do you suppose anyone would go about it? Dismantle the US government and evict 300 MILLION people to the slums of Europe (god knows where) because you believe they don't belong in North America?

No, no, no. I'm not talking about their first reactions to the European colonists. This is what would likely happen if you were all alone, snuck into their tribes and started living there disregarding any ruling they might have. This kind of behavior would be greeted with hostility. There is no propaganda taught about this subject because we don't treat Native Americans like trash. We have reservations founded to preserve their culture. Like our "I'm sorry!" note to the Native Americans. See my above paragraphs for reasons why it isn't practical to dismantle the USA and say "We quit life, we don't belong on this land. Have it back."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
It is true that much blood was shed by people who call this land their home...but I'm wondering....is that really a good reason to claim it? I mean, if it was really stolen land then, regardless of who fought to defend it, isn't stolen land still stolen land?

This is the way I see it. Imagine a young mother and her newborn baby. Let's say there was this woman who stole the baby from her cradle and ran. This woman, however, raised this baby like her own. Years later, the police caught this woman who stole the child. The woman argued: "I raised her like she was my own! I put my blood, sweat, tears, life, and all my love for her. I deserve to be with her! She's my daughter!!". Is that woman entitled to keep the child, or is she suppose to give her back to her real mother? That's the dilemma I see, though if I missed a point or you have another idea, please fell free to tell.
Stolen land is stolen. Of course. But from what you read in my above point, there is no reasonable way to make amends in a way that is fair without displacing the entire American population in an act that would be more selfish than the European colonization itself. The world we live in today is not the same world from hundreds of years ago. The current American population is approximately 100 times larger than the Native American population ever was. Consider that.

I have no idea how a woman would be able to steal a child and keep it so long that she got to raise it in peace, but sure, let's consider that scenario. Law already covers for the biological mother. She has rightful custody over the child. However, once the child comes of legal age (age: 18) it can choose to be with whomever he/she wants to be with, or just forget them both entirely and live on their own. Punishment would be due for the woman who stole the child.

Unfortunately, this is where your point falls apart. Countries aren't women and the land isn't a baby. It's a poor analogy at best. The Native Americans may reside on the land before colonization but they didn't give birth to the land. What came before the Native Americans? Surely something "owned" the land before them. We can go as far back as the dinosaurs who predated any of humanity on these pieces of rock. But we aren't pressing charges against meteors for killing the dinosaurs, are we? The Indians never had to give the land back to nature. They considered themselves part of it. Survival of the fittest. They were hunters. Top of the food chain. This still holds true today.

If you're Christian and that above paragraph was unfitting for you, then consider this. In creationism, God created the heavens and the earth and life to populate it. God owns everything. It's all given birth by him. Shall we all bow down on our knees, torch everything and give it all back to him because it doesn't belong to us? I just had to humor the thought.

The world isn't a fairy tale, flowers and rainbows. This is reality. The world is an unfair place to live. No matter what anyone does, today's Americans are never going to end up giving the land back to the Natives and evicting themselves to Europe. This isn't their fault either (again, see above points). You have to learn to accept these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
Regarding about "today's America". Yes you do have a point about that. I do agree that descendants shouldn't be made to pay for the crimes of their forefathers. But then why are Americans treating these immigrants the way they don't want to be treated? A child of an illegal immigrant who was born in the USA, grew up in the USA, and knew only of the people, culture, and life in the USA, be forced to be kicked out of the only life and land he knew? Not to mention, if Americans really acknowledge their history regarding settlers and Native Americans, why do they refuse to see that Americans before, and immigrants now, are the same? I mean, isn't that unfair? America descended from immigrants whom built that country from the ground after all... It's just something I don't understand, and having a hard time justifying.
You're missing something here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crap you made me quote
A child born on American soil automatically gets U.S. citizenship, unless the child is born to a foreign government official who is in the United States as a recognized diplomat. Children born in certain U.S. territories -- Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Guam -- may also acquire U.S. citizenship. For details, see Title 8 of the U.S. Code, available at United States Code: Title 8,TITLE 8&mdash;ALIENS AND NATIONALITY | LII / Legal Information Institute.

Anyone born with U.S. citizenship retains it for life unless he or she deliberately gives it up -- for example, by filing an oath of renunciation.
There's no way a child born and raised in the US would ever be forced out of the country. I can also ask you the same question. Why are illegal immigrants treating Americans the way they don't want to be treated? I don't like the rude glares I get when someone who doesn't speak English gets upset at me for not speaking their native language. "Uh, ma'am, this is America..." Americans aren't giving legal immigrants the boot. They have every right the typical American does. You'll have to do a little more research on this point on your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
About the law thing. Laws are only effective when the people agree upon upholding it. Laws are nothing by themselves (For example, look how many times powerful nations have disregarded the UN Charter?). During that time, I don't think Native Americans considered the land "theirs" per se. More likely, they considered the land to be of the land, for everyone who walks on it. Something like "No man can claim what he cannot outlive", as people then were more in tune with nature and gods and stuff. So a difference in rules is to be expected. But then, rules have principles behind them, right? So I would like to ask. What principles exist in the current US "laws" about immigration? And are these principles.....fair?
Totally fair. If you illegally sneak into America you don't get treated as a legal immigrant. Simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
That's an interesting view. A more lenient law would lessen the problem for everyone. Though my limited imagination is having a hard time picturing how that may be. Would you care to explain more?
You do know the process of immigration to America, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crap i am quoting again
U.S. citizenship can be obtained in one of four ways:

* birth in the United States or its territories
* birth to U.S. citizen parents (called "acquisition" of citizenship)
* naturalization (obtaining citizenship after an application and exam), or
* naturalization of one's parents (called "derivation" of citizenship).
The bolded point is the one I am talking about. The exam. It's a knowledge test. I find the Civics part pointless. Patriotic Americans feel this is a necessity. To me, understanding English is perfectly acceptable as a standard though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
Hmm...I find it interesting that you would use the word "invasion". But in a way, America (and really most of the world's "superpowers") have been "invading" other countries for years. One example on the top of my head is how the superpowers established control of the world's money flow after WWII. I could probably say something about the recent wars but I don't know much about those.

And isn't that kind of unpatriotic mindset....present in every nationality in some degree? Even among the general populace?
I knew I would regret typing that word. I am using it lightly here. In the context that media is putting it in. "THE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING. AND THEN THEY'RE GOING TO INVADE ME. OH MY GOOOOODDDD."

Nevertheless, I deal to you the "We're only human", "lolcapitalism" and "Charles Darwin" from my deck. I have typed too much already. The world isn't ideal the way you want it to be. Reality deals a lot of tough shit cards and we're powerless against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torikakae
I have to disagree. The reason I posted the video here is because I find their points interesting and thought-provoking. They deal with obscure historical facts, as well as perspectives generally hidden/ignored by the masses. They present researched facts (though perhaps not -all- the facts in it's entirety, but who can do that within 30 minutes?) that is at the very least thought-provoking, that makes you critically rethink about what you know and what you think you know (if what you know is the truth, then no problem, right?). Critical thinking is unfortunately missing in most people, who generally just accept the information presented to them...
I won't deny it's thought-provoking. Yet, in the wrong way. I don't believe I've ever heard the argument that "Americans are the illegal immigrants lole" but to me it's just as absurd as those 9/11 conspiracies that Bush set up us the bomb.

In the long run, I feel like I've been trolled more or less. And I'm replying to it.
__________________
 
08-06-2010   #8 (permalink)
ggFTW Stalker
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: t.o
Posts: 571
iTrader: (0)
Gatts has a little shameless behaviour in the past
IGN: OptimusGatts
Class: Sieg - The Knight lt_knight
Level: 5X
Default

I watched a bit then fast forwarded to see the "solution". His solution is one pf the dumbest things I have ever seen, 15-20 million illegals taking half of the continental US? I thought he would show a colony the size of switzerland or something. I couldn't imagine the ultra rape that would befall people trying to take half of the US. legally or by armed force.

Anyone taking 2 cartoon cats with fox news clips seriously needs to wake the f up.
 
08-06-2010   #9 (permalink)
Take it easy!
Special
Adun's Avatar
Games
World of Warcraft
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,308
Blog Entries: 35
iTrader: (0)
Adun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud ofAdun has much to be proud of
Guild: [JW], Kirameki
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatts
Anyone taking 2 cartoon cats with fox news clips seriously needs to wake the f up.
I. CAN'T. AWAKEN.
__________________
 
08-06-2010   #10 (permalink)
C.I.A. Rad Bromance
Torikakae's Avatar
Games
Trickster OnlineAuditionGrand ChasePangya
Awards Event WinnerMoM AwardWandering Eye
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In An Epic Battle
Posts: 5,216
Blog Entries: 17
iTrader: (12)
Torikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond reputeTorikakae has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Torikakae Send a message via Yahoo to Torikakae Send a message via Skype™ to Torikakae
IGN: Torikakae
Class: Buffalo to_buffalo
Level: 400
Guild: Mirage Coordinator
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
***Disclaimer: The presentation of this post is in a total train wreck. I blame all this nested quoting.***



Sorry, I misread the OP as "It's not propaganda." I can consider it as thought-provoking, as you put it.

Debates where people throw facts, quotes, and their icons at each other isn't a real debate. That's using other people to speak for you. I like to keep it real. So I won't be doing that in this post. This doesn't make my arguments any more true, but I merely want to voice my opinion and I accomplish just that. I'm not hellbent on altering people's beliefs. I can respect your opinion and agree to disagree. That is all I want to do. An addendum to my post could be: I apologize if I present things too bluntly and it offends you.

Same to you. Maybe I'm being too pushy, but I want to form strong counter-arguments against the points stated in the video and I'm asking for your opinions. I'm replying in a way how I would think the video makers would reply and see if your argument could stand its ground against theirs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
Nationalism makes people step on each other. This is humanity. Nothing new. Americans can glorify themselves as war heroes as much as Iraq can say their terrorists are heroes of Allah and Americans are idiots. Anything goes. It's up to the people to do their own research and take everything with a grain of salt to achieve higher levels of intellect, avoiding the fate of becoming a puppet.

Yeah, but in a way, it's kinda sad...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
I did not intend to alleviate blame on the American colonists when they forcefully took the land from the Native Americans. All I am saying here is that today's Americans are not responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago. There is nobody alive today to take the blame and suffer the consequences. You can't damn today's generation of Americans because of the sins of their forefathers. The population of the USA is far greater than it was in the days of colonization. It's far greater than the amount of Native Americans that lived here before. The price you are asking for far outweighs the reality. Are you serious about this?

Even if this would happen, how do you suppose anyone would go about it? Dismantle the US government and evict 300 MILLION people to the slums of Europe (god knows where) because you believe they don't belong in North America?

No, no, no. I'm not talking about their first reactions to the European colonists. This is what would likely happen if you were all alone, snuck into their tribes and started living there disregarding any ruling they might have. This kind of behavior would be greeted with hostility. There is no propaganda taught about this subject because we don't treat Native Americans like trash. We have reservations founded to preserve their culture. Like our "I'm sorry!" note to the Native Americans. See my above paragraphs for reasons why it isn't practical to dismantle the USA and say "We quit life, we don't belong on this land. Have it back."

I was actually talking about the Americans "then" than the Americans "now". That those settlers should've given the land back to the ones they stole it from. But yes, giving it back now would be problematic and unrealistic. So that option is gone. But I'm thinking more on the side of, since this country is technically built on the backs of former "illegal immigrants", is it fair to kick the current "illegal immigrants" out? Or is it just hypocritical, in principle I mean...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
Stolen land is stolen. Of course. But from what you read in my above point, there is no reasonable way to make amends in a way that is fair without displacing the entire American population in an act that would be more selfish than the European colonization itself. The world we live in today is not the same world from hundreds of years ago. The current American population is approximately 100 times larger than the Native American population ever was. Consider that.

What I said above. I agree that giving it back now is not an option...


Quote:
I have no idea how a woman would be able to steal a child and keep it so long that she got to raise it in peace, but sure, let's consider that scenario. Law already covers for the biological mother. She has rightful custody over the child. However, once the child comes of legal age (age: 18) it can choose to be with whomever he/she wants to be with, or just forget them both entirely and live on their own. Punishment would be due for the woman who stole the child.

Unfortunately, this is where your point falls apart. Countries aren't women and the land isn't a baby. It's a poor analogy at best. The Native Americans may reside on the land before colonization but they didn't give birth to the land. What came before the Native Americans? Surely something "owned" the land before them. We can go as far back as the dinosaurs who predated any of humanity on these pieces of rock. But we aren't pressing charges against meteors for killing the dinosaurs, are we? The Indians never had to give the land back to nature. They considered themselves part of it. Survival of the fittest. They were hunters. Top of the food chain. This still holds true today.

If you're Christian and that above paragraph was unfitting for you, then consider this. In creationism, God created the heavens and the earth and life to populate it. God owns everything. It's all given birth by him. Shall we all bow down on our knees, torch everything and give it all back to him because it doesn't belong to us? I just had to humor the thought.

The world isn't a fairy tale, flowers and rainbows. This is reality. The world is an unfair place to live. No matter what anyone does, today's Americans are never going to end up giving the land back to the Natives and evicting themselves to Europe. This isn't their fault either (again, see above points). You have to learn to accept these things.

There's that recent story about a baby who was stolen from her mother by her biological aunts, sent to her biological grandmother, then the grandmother gave her to a couple somewhere and never returned. The couple raised the child for 7+ years I think and renamed her to "Amber" or something. The couple knew the circumstances surrounding the child and kept her out of school. The police only caught up with the couple recently. Anyway, that's beside the point here.

About my "poor analogy". Maybe it is poor but I hope you at least got what I'm trying to say. Anyway, if indeed natives considered themselves part of nature instead of owning nature, as you put it, then would the settlers claiming the land as their property, along with the lives of the people part of it, fair? (I'm not asking if it's legal. I'm asking if it's fair since laws are suppose to be founded on principles of fairness and justice, right?)

I don't like religious arguments so I'll let you have this one.

Life isn't all flowers and rainbows, but isn't that what we are aspiring? Government policies, volunteer work, NGO's, government-subsidized programs, demanding for more employment and such? I can't seem to accept the statement "Life isn't fair. Deal with it" while being against anarchism at the same time...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
You're missing something here.


There's no way a child born and raised in the US would ever be forced out of the country. I can also ask you the same question. Why are illegal immigrants treating Americans the way they don't want to be treated? I don't like the rude glares I get when someone who doesn't speak English gets upset at me for not speaking their native language. "Uh, ma'am, this is America..." Americans aren't giving legal immigrants the boot. They have every right the typical American does. You'll have to do a little more research on this point on your own.

I was actually referring to a recent article I read (dammit, I lost the link. Lemme try to look for it) that the government is considering changing those policies, that it wouldn't be enough to be just born in the US to become US citizens.

I guess this disparity stems out from our difference in culture. You see, here in the Philippines we have around 80+ languages and dialects (if you believe the statistics). When I go to the province, not many people there know how to speak Filipino and they all just speak their native dialects. When I go to our "Chinatown", mostly everyone (I met) there only know how to speak Chinese. But we would never ever say "Hey, this is the Philippines. Learn to speak Filipino". Because we think it would be rude and wrong to do so, especially to the elderly. So, I find it very hard to accept the "This is America, speak English" argument and how it would be a justifiable argument. If you could enlighten me on that, that would be great, thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
Totally fair. If you illegally sneak into America you don't get treated as a legal immigrant. Simple.



You do know the process of immigration to America, right?



The bolded point is the one I am talking about. The exam. It's a knowledge test. I find the Civics part pointless. Patriotic Americans feel this is a necessity. To me, understanding English is perfectly acceptable as a standard though.

There's also the consideration of the time it takes to process an application, paperworks, VISA's, etc.... which could take years so an application for citizenship isn't as simple as that, but I get your point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
I knew I would regret typing that word. I am using it lightly here. In the context that media is putting it in. "THE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING. AND THEN THEY'RE GOING TO INVADE ME. OH MY GOOOOODDDD."

Nevertheless, I deal to you the "We're only human", "lolcapitalism" and "Charles Darwin" from my deck. I have typed too much already. The world isn't ideal the way you want it to be. Reality deals a lot of tough shit cards and we're powerless against it.

I find it sad that apathy or acceptance is our accepted reaction to reality's harshness, and that activism is synonymous to suicide or something. I mean, humans are the one that made and built this right? Why can't humans change it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adun
I won't deny it's thought-provoking. Yet, in the wrong way. I don't believe I've ever heard the argument that "Americans are the illegal immigrants lole" but to me it's just as absurd as those 9/11 conspiracies that Bush set up us the bomb.

In the long run, I feel like I've been trolled more or less. And I'm replying to it.

Maybe, but it's nice to see it from all angles, even from those wrong and ridiculous ones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatts
I watched a bit then fast forwarded to see the "solution". His solution is one pf the dumbest things I have ever seen, 15-20 million illegals taking half of the continental US? I thought he would show a colony the size of switzerland or something. I couldn't imagine the ultra rape that would befall people trying to take half of the US. legally or by armed force.

Anyone taking 2 cartoon cats with fox news clips seriously needs to wake the f up.

If you would care to watch the video in its entirety, you would see that it wasn't a serious solution, though it could be possible. He was referring to doing the same to what early settlers did to the natives, the action that gave birth to America. If they did it before, why not do it now? But of course that would lead to another war on territory and such.

I wonder if the UN Charter would allow that though, but if that new country isn't part of the UN, wonder how the world would react. Hmm....
__________________
Click here for more Buffalo hotness <3
PM me for password ^_~ 2000+ Buff pics!! ~ 07-24-11

~Thank you Shnao for the siggie~
 
08-07-2010   #11 (permalink)
sɪlvər
Silver Rook's Avatar
Awards Retired Content StaffPervert Award
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Milky Way Galaxy, Orion Arm, Solar System, Earth
Posts: 1,926
iTrader: (0)
Silver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond reputeSilver Rook has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Silver Rook Send a message via AIM to Silver Rook Send a message via MSN to Silver Rook Send a message via Yahoo to Silver Rook Send a message via Skype™ to Silver Rook
IGN: Silver
Class: Ag
Level: 47
Guild: Transition Metals
Default

Illegal Immigration isn't something you can solve because people are just going to keep on trying. The poor wants to get rich... Not really such a huge surprise.
__________________

This is Kyuubey
 
08-07-2010   #12 (permalink)
It's always lupus
Special
Mitchi's Avatar
Games
MapleStoryLuniaKingdom of LoathingCity of Heroes
Awards Retired Forum ModeratorMoM AwardPervert Award
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Narnia, and the north! Wait....is Narnia supposed to be Canada?
Posts: 3,244
Blog Entries: 39
iTrader: (0)
Mitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond reputeMitchi has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Mitchi Send a message via MSN to Mitchi Send a message via Yahoo to Mitchi
IGN: SakiaLumei, Arphage
Class: Aran, Blaze Wiz lt_treasurehunter
Level: 9x,3x
Guild: Cupcake
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Rook
Illegal Immigration isn't something you can solve because people are just going to keep on trying. The poor wants to get rich... Not really such a huge surprise.
For the most part, it has less to do with wanting to get rich and more with Mexico being (from what I've gathered) not a great place to live. The country is poor due to corruption, drug wars, etc etc. In Cuba's case....hell, would you want to live under Fidel Castro? And add in Mexico's close proximity to Texas and how easy it is to get over here (some parts near west Texas are practically connected to Mexico).

It's really starting to get to the point where getting a job in retail requires being bilingual in Spanish and English (which is why so many people are REALLY worked up about it). It's not about job stealing (most illegal immigrants do shit work anyway, true story) or taking wages, it's about the job market changing to accommodate illegal immigrants (mostly from Mexico/Cuba and all) and Immigrants getting on welfare and WIC (and therefore using government funds) AND not always paying income taxes (and other taxes for that matter). I don't personally have an issue with Illegal immigrants (since the asshat ones are all Legal anyway), but because of how society is, something needs to change so that the issues aren't so prominent.

Also, The requirements for getting citizenship are ridiculous. Without any connections, it can take years. Hell, my sister has been back in the philippines for a while now trying to finish the paperwork to bring her son here (She's a citizen, but her son was born in the philippines and raised by a relative there).

Even trying to get married to an american takes a long time and a lot of paperwork. This is mostly because of all of the people that try to marry off their friends and family to people overseas (and sometimes charge for it).
__________________
Baa baa black sheep have you any booze? No sir, no sir, I'm a....sheep~
 
08-08-2010   #13 (permalink)
ggFTW Lover ^_^
TheBlackCatXIII's Avatar
Awards MoM AwardFacebook Fan
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 465
iTrader: (0)
TheBlackCatXIII is a glorious beacon of lightTheBlackCatXIII is a glorious beacon of lightTheBlackCatXIII is a glorious beacon of lightTheBlackCatXIII is a glorious beacon of lightTheBlackCatXIII is a glorious beacon of lightTheBlackCatXIII is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via MSN to TheBlackCatXIII
IGN: TheBlackCatXIII
Class: Sense to_scientist
Default

just a few things i'd like to comment on.
to save time i'll list them in dot points:
-what is your definition of illegal immigrant? If they are indeed immigrants living in the country without a visa, then you have every right to either kick them out or have them apply for being refugees if they have a good reason.
-Here in Australia, we protect our country's language / culture etc through making immigrants do tests + interviews making sure that they know where they are and who they will be.
-Being in Australia, i strongly believe the failure to accept others due to their ethnicity and cultural background is racism, and it is an utterly disgraceful act.
-It's extremely ironic for "white settlers" to worry or even talk about immigrants taking things away from them. Look at what they have done to the natives of the land. At the very least, these "illegal immigrants" are not doing that.
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


zOMG!
Need a new browser game?

Try 

zOMG!

Rating:  

6.4
Hide this banner by registering for our community.