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02-04-2010   #41 (permalink)
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i actually think that the social stigma was derived from our innate ability to be able to sense when our species is in danger. this is why it is so rare for family members to be attracted to one another, because in the back of their brain [where their primal instincts are kept], they are tellings themselves to spread the genes. therefore, when someone is doing something that may limit the spread of genes, societies primal instincts kick in, and that person is immediately targeted.

so in short, its instinct that makes it socially unacceptable
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02-04-2010   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatThePhuc
and what if it's done in private or without interaction from anyone outside of the participants?
Quote:
Originally Posted by buta
^that. How many people do you know go around broadcasting they've had incest? Hm? None? Well there goes your evidence.
Then they themselves have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they committed incest. I believe that the only reason you would ever be attracted to someone within your family like that is completely based on sociological factors only. I don't believe any one is naturally attracted to their own family. The thought of "forbidden" sex is what stimulates the two into temptation of doing it, thus giving the pleasure of a thrill. Obviously, that can't lead to true happiness and is completely all sociological based.

However, this is my own opinion and what I personally believe.
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02-04-2010   #43 (permalink)
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Incest is as must of a mental disorder as any, normal humans are not attracted to family members like that. Therefore, it is a problem.

There's also the fact that it brings kids into this world with mental disorders and other severities just because you decided to mess around (most cases of incest also have inbreeding).


To the people saying it's no big deal if no one finds out: So I can go kill someone, and aslong as the authorities do not catch on it's okay?
 
02-04-2010   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
Incest is as must of a mental disorder as any, normal humans are not attracted to family members like that. Therefore, it is a problem.

There's also the fact that it brings kids into this world with mental disorders and other severities just because you decided to mess around (most cases of incest also have inbreeding).


To the people saying it's no big deal if no one finds out: So I can go kill someone, and aslong as the authorities do not catch on it's okay?
oh you're too easy
where do i begin...
so you're arguing based on normality
if we take a look at some examples throughout history:
-it was the norm in the 17th century in colonial america to think of black people as property; that they are inferior to white people, etc. using your argument here, it would have been a "mental disorder" to respect black people as humans
-before the 16th century, most people believed the universe was heliocentric (earth in the middle, everything revolves around it). it would have been a "mental disorder" to think earth revolves around the sun.
i could go on and on with the paradigm shifts, but you get the idea
unless you're only arguing that incest is wrong as long as it isn't the norm; that if it was the norm then it would be ok

see the 2nd part of your post confuses me....
cuz you already responded to my post saying that sex doesn't necessarily lead to childbirth, yet you still bring up an argument that i already countered...

LOL the last part
i could use my colonial slavery example here
not only was killing black people ok, it was publicly accepted
you didn't even need to hide anything and everyone would be fine with it
and don't even get me started on when killing Jews was the norm in Germany
your killing example is flawed because killing IS socially acceptable in some situations
a common day example would be rival gangs like crips and bloods

you can't argue something is inherently wrong based on normality because the norm is different based on time, place, etc.
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Last edited by WhatThePhuc; 02-04-2010 at 08:43 PM.
 
02-04-2010   #45 (permalink)
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The people who believed slavery was right more-than-likely did have underlying mental problems. And, thread derailed/10.
 
02-04-2010   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SOC
Then they themselves have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they committed incest.
Sounds like you're saying they'll feel the guilt. That is solely based off of the assumption that all people work on the same moral line as you do.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
Incest is as must of a mental disorder as any, normal humans are not attracted to family members like that. Therefore, it is a problem.

There's also the fact that it brings kids into this world with mental disorders and other severities just because you decided to mess around (most cases of incest also have inbreeding).


To the people saying it's no big deal if no one finds out: So I can go kill someone, and aslong as the authorities do not catch on it's okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
The people who believed slavery was right more-than-likely did have underlying mental problems. And, thread derailed/10.
Phuc is having fun~
I like how you completely ignored half his arguments and just said the thread derailed. Actually, we're still on the topic of why it is wrong or not. Phuc is just illustrating his point. But since you might've missed that, I shall reiterate my own thoughts.

1. Again, since it needs to be said multiple times, subjective terms like "normal" don't get you anywhere. I don't know what Yukitchi might have said exactly, but what I get as well as my own understanding is that "normal" is dependent on where you live, your culture, and how you're brought up. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to point at other cultures and say they're not normal when, in their eyes, you are the one that is not normal.

And if you're going to pull a "thread-derailed", don't bother. You're arguing on the basis that the western culture says it's wrong and not normal and so it must be wrong and not normal for the rest of the world. I believe that's called a "sweeping generalization".

2. Not all. Again, you're making a generalization. Increases chance, not 100% produces.

3. I don't see anyone saying it's okay. Do share where you got that from. Just because some people (like me?) said that just about no one goes out to broadcast there love life doesn't equate the fact that it's okay. Saying "it happens" is not advocacy. It's a fact.

4. On your offtopic response to phuc's example, again, normality is subjective. The people who brought the slaves over saw it as profit. Their time period does not equal now. The different human rights that people are struggling left and right to gain now did not exist back then. That's why it's history.

To them, slavery was normal. Mental problems? Again, if you wanna label things that don't fit your taste as a mental problem, you might as well label the entire human race as a mental case.
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02-04-2010   #47 (permalink)
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The definition of normal does indeed change. By your logic, slavery was always a good thing because at one point, it was normal.

Perhaps I should say it's standard thought to think incest is wrong? Chances are not 100% that an inbred child will have issues. Wanna try it and gamble? They might have a perfectly healthy child, or it could need to live in the hospital/be mentally ill/etc.

It's morally wrong (this is something most people -will- agree with) to like a family member that way.
 
02-04-2010   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
The definition of normal does indeed change. By your logic, slavery was always a good thing because at one point, it was normal.

Perhaps I should say it's standard thought to think incest is wrong? Chances are not 100% that an inbred child will have issues. Wanna try it and gamble? They might have a perfectly healthy child, or it could need to live in the hospital/be mentally ill/etc.

It's morally wrong (this is something most people -will- agree with) to like a family member that way.
Again, you're argument form is incorrect. You draw incorrect conclusions from who knows where. Apparently, you can't comprehend what subjective means.

1. Slavery is normal ONLY FOR THOSE WHO SEE IT AS NORMAL. Perhaps you're one of them. Who knows. I'm sure not. That doesn't change the fact that SOME PEOPLE DO.

2. Incest is wrong to you. Incest is wrong to many. HOWEVER, it would be a sweeping generalization (something you should probably look up unless you want to look ignorant in your reply) to assume that ALL PEOPLE find it wrong.

And the second half of that was completely meaningless. Yes. It's a chance. I believe I'm the one who said that in the first place since you were making it seem like a totality.

3. Morality, just like normality, is also subjective. It depends by what morals people live by. to SOME PEOPLE incest is completely moral as well as normal. I haven't met them personally, but they're out there somewhere.


You have a horrible habit of drawing wrong conclusions and making wrong assumptions. I don't believe I've ever said I advocated incest, yet you're acting as if I'm incest manifest.
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02-04-2010   #49 (permalink)
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LOL
i like how you put words in my mouth that i never said
wanna quote the part when i said slavery was always good?

again, you're STILL talking about childbirth
what year are you living in?
cuz i live in a world where there's birth control and condoms, etc.

i like how you completely ignored my post about how the "most people will agree with" argument fails
so whatever "most people agree with" is right?
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02-05-2010   #50 (permalink)
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What's the point of this thread if people are just going to fly off the handle the moment someone says it's wrong. You support incest? Good for you. Same as supporting murder, etc.
 
02-05-2010   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
What's the point of this thread if people are just going to fly off the handle the moment someone says it's wrong. You support incest? Good for you. Same as supporting murder, etc.
again, you're putting words in my mouth
when did i say i support incest?
never
but you draw conclusions from god knows where

my posts have to do with your method of REASONING
it's not about whether you think it's wrong or not
it's the REASONING you give behind it (normailty) which is inconsistent

you obviously have never learned about developing strong arguments
when you argue something, you need to pay attention to the support you use to back it up

if you actually read any of my posts, i NEVER said whether anything is right or wrong
so i don't know where you're getting this "slavery is good", "i support incest" stuff from
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Last edited by WhatThePhuc; 02-05-2010 at 01:30 AM.
 
02-05-2010   #52 (permalink)
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If you are sexually attracted to a family member it is incest. Also, who's unneedingly down-repping every post I make simply for participating in a discussion? Guess what? You're right. There is no right or wrong - down-repping at this point is like you're trying to say I'm wrong for stating my opinion on the matter.
 
02-05-2010   #53 (permalink)
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Wow MoonlightMemento, you suck at intelligent arguing, you should have stopped arguing long time ago.

I do agree with incest seems "morally" wrong with generally most of current society. If incest is mental disorder, so is love in general. Incest IS love, just the partner(s) are family members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
What's the point of this thread if people are just going to fly off the handle the moment someone says it's wrong. You support incest? Good for you. Same as supporting murder, etc.
Saying an example like "Same as supporting murder" is not a very smart and sounds more like a trolling statement, especially when you look at the core subject (Incest). while an incestuous relationship can lead to murder (as the extreme emotion that love can create, seems to do), I don't see how murder is a very good example when comparing it to incest.
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Last edited by HennaIkimono; 02-05-2010 at 04:19 AM.
 
02-05-2010   #54 (permalink)
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It's a forbidden love so-to-speak, like bestiality. Then again, who are we to say what's morally right or wrong? There's no argument to have here... both sides are equally right.

Slavery wasn't a good example either Henna, but WTP still used it. Murder = illegal, Incest = illegal in alot of states. Slavery = died out like a hundred years ago.
 
02-05-2010   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
It's a forbidden love so-to-speak, like bestiality. Then again, who are we to say what's morally right or wrong? There's no argument to have here... both sides are equally right.

Slavery wasn't a good example either Henna, but WTP still used it. Murder = illegal, Incest = illegal in alot of states. Slavery = died out like a hundred years ago.
I said what I wanted to say on your "incest is a mental disorder" statement and you seem to have gasped what everyones been trying to tell you on the morallity issue, so I agree, argument it is over.

He used slavery as an example against your use of "Normal" and "mental disorder" in your posts and not toward an "incest is good" good point if view, he also didn't say he supported it or agreed it was a good thing in his posts eather. While Murder and incest(in general) are illegal as you say, you said they were the same as in principle, that being that in love with a family member is the same as killing someone.
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Last edited by HennaIkimono; 02-05-2010 at 04:47 AM.
 
02-05-2010   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightMemento
It's a forbidden love so-to-speak, like bestiality.
=[ incest is nothing compared to bestiality Dx..... you cannot compare those two in an equal standing ;-;...

bestiality is using FORCE towards animals...... while on the other hand, incest does not apply force towards its partner Dx....

hmmz..lemme give u a true to life situation that was even televised here in mah country....

there was these parents wherein they can no longer finance the lives of their children (w/c is a boy and a girl)... these couple can only keep one so they decided to separate their 2 children..the couple decided to keep the girl on their side while giving away the boy in an orphan.... the couple did not tell the girl that she has a brother... 30 years later, unfortuantely, the girl found a husband and she doesnt have any idea that the one she married is HER OWN BROTHER...aqnd even when she found out the truth about her brother, she was still in love with him"

in the situation given above, does that mean the girl was suffering in a mental dis order?? i dont think so Dx....
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Last edited by YukitchiSan; 02-05-2010 at 06:01 AM.
 
02-05-2010   #57 (permalink)
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Again with the de-reps? Seriously being abused, bro.

If they didn't know they were related it's not necessarily incest. When you know for a fact you're dating a sibling/cousin, it's just... wrong.
 
02-05-2010   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buta
Sounds like you're saying they'll feel the guilt. That is solely based off of the assumption that all people work on the same moral line as you do.
By the way..
Spoiler!
No, I'm pretty sure the majority of cultures around this world (and in the past as well) consider incest as taboo, for obvious reasons that have been stated in this thread. I'm sorry that I came across the way that every one would have the same morality, but I did try to emphasize that I was speaking out of my personal opinion. I'm sorry.
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02-05-2010   #59 (permalink)
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MoonlightMemento, just pointing out and no offence, that maybe it's better to just speak from your own point of view before going around throwing one and the other "facts" which you solely base on your own beliefs and thinking.

There could be many forms of incestuous relationships, but if 2 family members fall in love with each other and feel attracted to, I wouldn't call their love a "mental disorder". What is morally right and wrong and what is normal and not, one would have their own view on such matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buta
2. Incest is wrong to you. Incest is wrong to many. HOWEVER, it would be a sweeping generalization (something you should probably look up unless you want to look ignorant in your reply) to assume that ALL PEOPLE find it wrong.


3. Morality, just like normality, is also subjective. It depends by what morals people live by. to SOME PEOPLE incest is completely moral as well as normal. I haven't met them personally, but they're out there somewhere.
^quoting buta.

About incest though and to the above reply you gave to YukitchiSan, isn't or wouldn't that considered the same thing as what was said, like what is incest even to you then, to some incest would be just incest and they would still be looked down upon and treated differently by a part or majority of the society. So when does it become incest, its when you realize the man/woman you married with and even had healthy children turns out to be your brother/sister/etc becomes "incest" in your eyes? Everything will change from that point onwards then even their love would be a mental disorder and their kids would be nothing but "miracles" of not having turned into deformities?

Anyways that was just an example and these are just my thoughts and opinions on this matter.
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02-05-2010   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatThePhuc
and what if it's done in private or without interaction from anyone outside of the participants?
Skimming through this thread the only thing I wanted to reply to was this. It's my opinion but I feel that if you're too ashamed or shy to announce your love to someone no matter the cost of doing so, you're not--in love--enough.

Unless you're talking about doing like a one night stand with your relative. That's kind of... well that's even worse than being in love with your relative. Love can at least cause confusion and make you desire something but a one night stand kind of thing is just... pure desire for a thrill. In other words, someone who really needs to learn to control their sexual desires. (Seriously)
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