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03-03-2011   #41 (permalink)
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There's a problem if Flash is picked 9 times out of 10 over any other summoner spell.

How often is Fortify used vs Flash? How about Heal? Clarity? Clairvoyance? Rally?

Exactly.

My point isn't that people having Flash is imbalanced. My point is that Flash ITSELF is an imbalanced spell, period. It's bad design. Crutches should not exist in a game. It encourages bad gameplay. If you can rely on summoner spells to save you most of the time, then you have no reason to improve or to be good.

It would be much different if Flash had a cooldown of 3 seconds whenever you entered or left combat.

Yeah, I can complain about the other team having Flash, but that doesn't mean my team doesn't have Flash either. Flash just causes so many more problems than it solves... if it solves any. Don't believe it does.
 
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03-03-2011   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
There's a problem if Flash is picked 9 times out of 10 over any other summoner spell.

How often is Fortify used vs Flash? How about Heal? Clarity? Clairvoyance? Rally?

Exactly.

My point isn't that people having Flash is imbalanced. My point is that Flash ITSELF is an imbalanced spell, period. It's bad design. Crutches should not exist in a game. It encourages bad gameplay. If you can rely on summoner spells to save you most of the time, then you have no reason to improve or to be good.

It would be much different if Flash had a cooldown of 3 seconds whenever you entered or left combat.

Yeah, I can complain about the other team having Flash, but that doesn't mean my team doesn't have Flash either. Flash just causes so many more problems than it solves... if it solves any. Don't believe it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Ryze: *Uses Flash as soon as he's grabbed* LOL U SO BAD SCRUB LRN2PLAY
LOL U SO BAD SCRUB LRN2PLAY. GET BANSHEE WHEN U AGAINST A BLITZ L0LZ

-_- dude...
Hi some champions dont have escape skills.
What do you expect them to do?

Oh I'm playing X character and X character has 0 escape
I am just going to die all day because I am X character and I have no escape skills.
Because I am X character I am really fun to play because all I do is die because if I rely on summoners to save myself I am bad.

Oh hey ABCDEFKLMNOPQZ characters. Because all the other characters can barley escape I am not going to play them. I will just play ABCDEFKLMNOPQZ.

Dude your argument is terrible.

Flash is FINE.
It is your choice to get it or not so dont complain about it. No one is stopping you from getting it and yeah you are right summoners like heal, fortify, rally do not get used much.

In what game is everything balanced?

Everything has something that is better and because those things are better. People chose to use those better things.

What you are saying is pretty much like...

I am on Lunia, I am using X equips when Y equips have 10x better stats.
Even though I can get Y equips I dont want them. But I will still complain why Y is better than X.


edit: this will be my last post about this. it is such a waste of time arguing about something that has such a clear answer.
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Last edited by Minuss; 03-03-2011 at 10:58 PM.
 
03-03-2011   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Blitzcrank: Let me just take a few seconds to mindgame this person, wait for the exact, opportune time to use my Rocket Grab, and then we can kill him.
-20 seconds later-
Blitzcrank lands Rocket Grab.
Blitzcrank's mind: YEAH! I am a really good asset to my team!!
Blitzcrank is actually borderline OP, it is only Flash (and his relative difficulty) that keeps him from being OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Ryze: *Uses Flash as soon as he's grabbed* LOL U SO BAD SCRUB LRN2PLAY
Grab has suppression, if you're good at Blitz, you can chain CC for at least 1.5 seconds which is more than enough to gib a champion (unless they are a tank).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Yeah, Flash is a perfectly fair spell in every sense of the word. There's ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with Flash. Nope.

/obviousfreakingsarcasm.


Oh, you're funny. Reeeeeal funny.
Flash has been nerfed several times and champions that use Flash defensive (ranged AD carries) have had severe nerfs to their mobility (movement speed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Okay, any smart Kassadin, provided they're actually trying, is going to run Flash/Cleanse. You're going to have trouble CCing Kassadin if he can Cleanse out of your stuns. If your team has more than one or two stuns, then said smart Kassadin will invest into a Banshee's Veil after Boots/Core Item. Good luck doing pretty much anything to him.
I have a lot to say about Kassadin, but it's going to be a long explanation mainly centering around his relatively low nuke damage to other AP carries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Flash isn't that bad on people that will pretty much escape anyways, like Kassadin and Katarina and whatnot. It's the champions that have no escape without Flash that USE Flash that makes it a real kick in the nuts.

I mean, look at Heimerdinger. He's got no actual escape. He's a walking gold pot, if the Heimer player isn't all that good. But, with Flash, he's allowed to escape any bad situation he gets himself in.
Heimerdinger without Flash would be SO useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
As said many times before: until Flash is made so you can't use it while in combat and 3 seconds afterwards (give or take a second), it won't be a balanced spell. They can increase the cooldown to 9 minutes, like Revive's cooldown. It won't freaking matter. People will still carry this spell because the advantages you get from having this spell is far greater than any other spell there is.
Not really, I see WAY more Ghosts than Flash, for good reason. The problem with Flash are its defensive uses, which really has been toned down (CD) and those that benefit the most (AD ranged carries) have been nerfed, which I mentioned before.

Also, the game is fairly balanced around AD ranged carries taking Flash. Imagine how bad it would be for these carries if Jarvan/Xin Zhao could get in their faces with no way to escape?
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03-03-2011   #44 (permalink)
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Revive OP.

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03-04-2011   #45 (permalink)
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There's always a right time to use Flash or any other summoner spells. Any earlier or late use will make the spell bad. What I'm saying is that summoner spells has its good and bad, mostly depending on timing if not, entirely depends on timing.
(Revive still sucks, no matter what!)
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Last edited by SoulEdge; 03-04-2011 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Blame my english teacher.
 
03-04-2011   #46 (permalink)
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yeah like - hey i dont have any escape mechas, so i go for flash bro-
flash must be forbidden for that reason.

-hey i dont have any disables to counter enemy carrys, i go for exhaust-
exhaust must be forbidden for that reason.

-hey i dont do any damage but i want some easy kills, i go for ignite-
ignite must be forbidden for that reason


that way of thinking somehow is fail... its either increasing their own capacitys or getting something that might suit them more

watching some irelias with exhaust/ignite getting ganged so easily but 1n1 laning like hell
while ghost/flash doesnt get ganged at all but got some more problems killing in 1n1

summoners got long cd and flash already got nerfed (luckily so did ghost), why would you even want to get rid of it, cant chase ez/kass/nid anymore hu oh right lets get rid of those champs too
 
03-04-2011   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashee
yeah like - hey i dont have any escape mechas, so i go for flash bro-
flash must be forbidden for that reason.

-hey i dont have any disables to counter enemy carrys, i go for exhaust-
exhaust must be forbidden for that reason.

-hey i dont do any damage but i want some easy kills, i go for ignite-
ignite must be forbidden for that reason


that way of thinking somehow is fail... its either increasing their own capacitys or getting something that might suit them more
This exactly (and what Minuss said earlier)
There's a reason why summoner spells exist; so they can be used by any champion.

Yumidesu, after your Blitzcrank example, it just sounds like you're crying that people keep flashing away from you.

If you're a overfed AP carry and say someone like Jarvan (great example actually) uses ulti on you, are you just going to sit there and let Jarvan's team focus you?
 
03-04-2011   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzor
This exactly (and what Minuss said earlier)
There's a reason why summoner spells exist; so they can be used by any champion.

Yumidesu, after your Blitzcrank example, it just sounds like you're crying that people keep flashing away from you.

If you're a overfed AP carry and say someone like Jarvan (great example actually) uses ulti on you, are you just going to sit there and let Jarvan's team focus you?
Minuss doesn't get my point, so I won't bother anymore.

Yeah, it's not the most satisfying thing when people Flash away from you and it costs you a kill or something you clearly would have had if they didn't have Flash.

In that example you mentioned, no other spell would save you, unless it's Flash.

Ignite would just do a bit of damage, and you're unlikely to kill a tanky Jarvan as a squishy AP carry. Exhaust would mitigate a lot of his damage, but he could still CC you using any slows he has (Mallet or Lizard) and use his own slow or knockup. Ghost might get you out of that bad situation if you were able to survive the initial 3.5~4 seconds of burst from Jarvan. Depends. Flash, however, instantly teleports you out of that area and out of that bad situation.

It's the own player's fault (in this case, the AP carry's) for being bad at positioning and letting their Jarvan get close enough to ult you, since his ult's range isn't all that large. Flash lets that mistake act like it never happened, since you can easily Flash out of it.

But, Xpec does have a point. Flash isn't nowhere as bad as it used to be. Since the CD has been nerfed to like, 1.5m~2m more than what it used to be, and it not popping projectiles anymore.
 
03-04-2011   #49 (permalink)
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baiting people and be like : whoops i flashed right away, hf with my teammates sure sounds like a bad situation never happend
 
03-04-2011   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumidesu
Minuss doesn't get my point, so I won't bother anymore.

Yeah, it's not the most satisfying thing when people Flash away from you and it costs you a kill or something you clearly would have had if they didn't have Flash.

In that example you mentioned, no other spell would save you, unless it's Flash.

Ignite would just do a bit of damage, and you're unlikely to kill a tanky Jarvan as a squishy AP carry. Exhaust would mitigate a lot of his damage, but he could still CC you using any slows he has (Mallet or Lizard) and use his own slow or knockup. Ghost might get you out of that bad situation if you were able to survive the initial 3.5~4 seconds of burst from Jarvan. Depends. Flash, however, instantly teleports you out of that area and out of that bad situation.

It's the own player's fault (in this case, the AP carry's) for being bad at positioning and letting their Jarvan get close enough to ult you, since his ult's range isn't all that large. Flash lets that mistake act like it never happened, since you can easily Flash out of it.

But, Xpec does have a point. Flash isn't nowhere as bad as it used to be. Since the CD has been nerfed to like, 1.5m~2m more than what it used to be, and it not popping projectiles anymore.
please explain your point then because i am 99.99% sure I know what your point is and your point is totally flawed.

and you said flash cd should be 9 minutes ?_?
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Last edited by Minuss; 03-04-2011 at 02:48 PM.
 
03-04-2011   #51 (permalink)
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@Yumi: Jarvan's ult is pretty damn strong, but it's balanced because of the presence of Flash. If squishy champions had no way to escape it, it would 1) Make those champions that CAN escape it REALLY good and 2) Make those champions that CAN'T escape it REALLY bad, which will cause a whole bunch of balancing problems. Having Flash in the game allows spells like Anivia's Wall and Blitzcrank's Grab to be slightly OP yet still "tolerable."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashee
baiting people and be like : whoops i flashed right away, hf with my teammates sure sounds like a bad situation never happend
Would you be baiting if your Flash wasn't up, or if you didn't have it? Baiting is just a strategy, Flash is one way to execute it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuss
please explain your point then because i am 99.99% sure I know what your point is and your point is totally flawed.

and you said flash cd should be 9 minutes ?_?
Hyperbole bro.
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03-04-2011   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpecial
Would you be baiting if your Flash wasn't up, or if you didn't have it? Baiting is just a strategy, Flash is one way to execute it.
under normal terms i wouldnt bait if my flash isnt up

facechecking bushes as ryze sure is a good idea... surviving thrice with less than 50hp due flash

the 3rd time they flash'ed after me
 
03-05-2011   #53 (permalink)
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and thats why you bait people to use flash...it has an long cooldown, longer than any ultis around, so what is scare them to make they use it.
 

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