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04-01-2009   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldie
That's not the point, Don't care if you like Carebears and I like Barney no, just saying the Point of MMORPGs has been lost completely. Plus Neopets was NEVER an MMORPG. It's all about money and loads of crap, people forgot how to make good games. I was just using EverQuest as a very good example of an MMORPG, feel free to use your own example.

EDIT: Like I said it took maturity to play that is what builds a good community, all of you who have played an MMORPG must of encountered playing with a arrogant little 12 year old I'm stereotyping but ya people like that who would be always like swearing at everyone and just being a dumbass No none of that you would have to be very mature. Want an example fine here is an example.


This is exactly what I'm talking about this is just WoW
You're joking right?
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04-02-2009   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LolWut
You're joking right?
Sadly he doesn't know a staged movie used for comedy and what its really like, so no he isn't.
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04-02-2009   #43 (permalink)
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Lol goldie if you get mad at them it'll just be funnier for the "12 year-old idiot". For some people, games are just for fun and they think that making fun of people and being stupid is fun. IMO, you should just let it go.
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04-04-2009   #44 (permalink)
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I wish I was around for a game like EverQuest, but back then I didn't have the cash to pay for things monthly (I was like 14?).

The truth is, there is no real immersion in todays game, there is no risk factor, with a little bit of real cash you throw at the game makers and all of your 'mistakes' are fixed, you don't HAVE to get into the game the way you should. A real MMO should be a game that you obsess over constantly, that you have to get right, that you openly discuss about with other players, that when a new patch comes out you look at all of the updates and see if you have to change your skills or stats, or get ready for something, a game where teamwork means a lot but that you can have 'some' fun solo, a game with bosses that aren't just 'Oh I soloed __' but also aren't "I need to get a whole guild ogether for this one."


The reason EverQuest was so great is mainly because it was pretty much the first (and at this rate last) MMO to not be an "Intro-MMO" that feels that it has to introduce you to every aspect of the game very slowly and get you used to it, every MMO that's out right now fills that gap, but they keep trying, they basically say "Hey, let's start off slow and teach you" and then they jump into "LETS ****ING GRIND FOR HOURs, YEA!!!", with a few bosses, but the bosses aren't fun to kill,t here's no immersion, the bosses are just there to get a few extra things done or complete a quest or what have you.

If I knew like 30~40 people and I could get together a big clan I'd probably totally join EverQuest or something similar, but heh.

I'm hoping a game comes out that's really good, I've heard really good things about EvE and if it's that good, I don't mind paying, but o.o;

EDIT: After reading this thread I have this to say, why are you guys arguing with him? Games today suck, and if you've played enough of them you should know, by the time you get to your '2nd job' in the game that's it. There is no endgame by the way, some of them have pvp, the rest of them just have flashier weapons and the occasional KSing noobs to 'show offhow pro you are', and if you can name a game besides EvE, EverQuest, and the few other 'great' games that have a good endgame, then go ahead and do it. There hasn't been a revolution in the MMO industry for over a decade, and it's MUCH needed, there are a few games that have intellectuals and mature individuals onlly really, like ArchLord, but they're generally VERY smalll groups, and the games aren't that popular (because if they were, there would be 12yos all around it).


Oh, and if you need a reason why gaming got so 'grind', it's simple. For a traditional MMO in the style of EverQuest to last as a 1000 hour MMORPG, it would probably require at least 500,000 'normal' players to stay up for the first year, because content is used up quickly, and while it has a good replay value, because of the replay value, content is more costly to create if not re-used.

In a standard MMORPG they introduce a 'grind factor' and this grind factor makes stuff a lot cheaper, you throw down a new area's sprites, some new monsters, old attacks, maybe a boss or two, and instance if you want, and that'll last about 100 hours per person at LEAST because you increase the curve a LOT to keep your content on the cheap, you migh need like 1 new area that has about 10 monsters over 7 maps or so, and then a random mini-boss to last a good 20 lvls of the game, which might last a normal player about 2 weeks~4 weeks (100 hours at 5hours a day 7 days a week) and it'll cost very little for that content.

The best part about the new model is the introduction of "Micro transactions" the companies can also release a bit of 'cash shop' or 'Vanity' items each patch which will have the vanity-minded players paying money for more content towards the game as well as other things, this has been proven to bring in a lot more revenue than the p2p method, and has been more successful.
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04-07-2009   #45 (permalink)
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Everquest was, and still probably is a lot like WoW. Level up, do a bunch of quests. It's all about gear and such still. I never bothered to play Everquest, because it looked terrible. However I have played a few older games, and they were a lot of fun. You act like EQ is the first MMO or something and nothing can ever be as good as it is, but even stuff like Meridian 59 and whatnot aren't the only games older than EQ.

Back in the day we had Nexus, and Lineage, which are two of the ones I used to play, and have played for a long time. The original Lineage, honestly, blows L2 out of the water in terms of gameplay. It doesn't have the fancy graphics, or all the bells and whistles, but at the core it's so much better. There's real, constant conflict and having strong relationships with other players really matters. Without them you won't make it very long.

Nexus has so much depth to it, as does Dark Ages, which is another game by the same company which it is based on, because of partly, how old they are, but also because of how much time was invested in them due to the owners not being sure they could turn a profit without really working for it. Sadly, these games are all falling in on themselves now because all the kiddies care about now a days is graphics, and they'd rather play some terrible game that's shiny and 3D than play an awesome game in 2D.

If people could just get past Nexus and Dark Ages' lack of graphics, they'd be able to realize how awesome and deep the games are, and how much content exists for them to go through. Both games, once reaching the max level, allow you to buy more stats and hp/mp with experience, so you can go as far as you want to go. Higher stats grant you access to even stronger "marks" and equipment, and due to Dark Ages' subpathing, mastering, and Medenian class systems, there's tons of interesting class combinations you can make.
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04-07-2009   #46 (permalink)
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No one is saying something will never be as good as EQ, the problem is that nothing that is currently released is as good as EverQuest. I speak of EverQuest as an ideal because it fulfills it, not the actual game. A game that isn't forgiving, a game that rewards not only your tireless hours thrown into playing, but your hours spent grueling over calculations that a normal person would probably give up on, but that's what gives you the edge. Sure that other dude could get to be just as strong as you, but it would take him about 5x as long.

What you stated in the second paragraph also fulfills this ideal. My statement however was mostly about today's games and their lack of fulfilling all of the parameters necessary for a game to be good and flourish as an MMO.

As far as 2D goes, you're so far from right it's not even funny, I know so many people over my years of playing MMOs and all of the ones I know hop to new games for functionality, and new 'systems' that are supposed to improve the game, not for graphics, but then again... I hang around 2DSSMMO players that casually stray outside of that zone, not kids who are attracted to retarded cartoon characters like World of Warcraft.

I'd wet myself over the opportunity to try out a good MMO that isn't some piece of shit graphics *****house for little kids to grind on and show off their newest Vanity items.

Now while both of those games you've mentioned sound crazy awesome, there are a few problems with them.

1)You can't teach an old dog new tricks. The core is strong, hell probably the best there can be, but it's probably so stable that they can't add anything big enough for them to get enough people for advertising to take place to get more people in, so they stay low.

2)I doubt they have a sufficient 'free trial', and the cost for it monthly is probably absurd, not to mention during these times (and the recession has been hitting us for years) people don't want to be spending money monthly if it can be avoided.

3)Even if there were private servers for these kids to run to first to try out the game on, it wouldn't be balanced because the kiddies running it would squabble over Gms not having to be fair and all sorts of random bullshit.

No matter how you toss it out there, there will be problems. Realistically I could tell you that TalesWeaver is an EXCELLENT game, and it is. The systems the game has are superior to most games I've played, the classes are different enough, the game play expansive enough, but the biggest problem is that although it's free... it's not in English, and the only translation for it still leaves you with Koreans always KSing you because you won't answer a stupid question that you can't read. All of these 'perfect' games have problems, they all have their little quirks that go with them.
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04-07-2009   #47 (permalink)
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Ya listen see this is what the thread bends down to sorry to say it but I know I was bragging how EQ was the game. But all of you are mostly talking about related games and they are related because they were made a while back when quality mattered. This thread is meant to say that 'present' MMORPGs as of right now suck end of story or are just a cheap rip off of a crappier game if your going to rip off a game rip off a game that people want to play.

Yes, I agree with you Zamte if people learn to get passed the graphics they would find out how good some games are that's what it's all about now graphics and money they want to lure stupid kids to play games and make big bucks off their parent's money, No offence to anyone. Like I'm saying this right now and it's true if you can't accept the truth then I'm sorry your done, you people obviously don't get the point I don't care if your smart, dumb, or mentally challenged it doesn't take a genius to know this.

Oh and BTW Phuc I wasn't saying the community is bad in EQ I was saying that it doesn't want immature people, of course there were stupid people though they were heavily frowned upon. If you don't get it then I don't know what's wrong with you I just answered your question I'm just clearing that up with you, I don't think I can say it any better then that.

Last edited by Goldie; 04-07-2009 at 11:27 PM.
 
04-08-2009   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleclast
No one is saying something will never be as good as EQ, the problem is that nothing that is currently released is as good as EverQuest. I speak of EverQuest as an ideal because it fulfills it, not the actual game. A game that isn't forgiving, a game that rewards not only your tireless hours thrown into playing, but your hours spent grueling over calculations that a normal person would probably give up on, but that's what gives you the edge. Sure that other dude could get to be just as strong as you, but it would take him about 5x as long.
This is simply your opinion about what an ideal game is, not proven, factual criteria a game needs to have to be perfect.

Which is what others have been harping at in this thread. Different people have different opinions about what an ideal game is and this fuels the MMO industry. So all this talk about MMORPGs sucking is pretty much moot.
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04-08-2009   #49 (permalink)
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Well, the difference is that my thoughts are based on opinions, but they're based on opinions of masses, and I have studies to back me up. If you want them, ask and I'll post a second hand source that references them, but it's a lot to read so I doubt most will.

The fact of the matter is, these are the things that we all KNOW make games suck, they're here to make games more casual and more FORGIVING, the things that a hardcore gamer wouldn't want because it makes the casual gamers able to meet up to the standards of the hardcore gamer.

Original MMOs were targeted at hardcore gamers because they were thought to be the only ones to tolerate so many hours of game play, however when they realized that the target audience was too small they made MMORPGs less scary and more "introduction" style.
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04-09-2009   #50 (permalink)
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telecast, you sound smart enough to know that you're talking about subjective things
"suck", "hardcore", "casual", "many hours"
i have read scientific journals on mmorpgs
and they basically prove my point
when talking about what counts as "excessive", they use different amounts of time
some say 5 hours in one sitting, some say 3 hours, etc.
it's not universal
when talking about what makes games "suck", what does "suck" mean?
it's not attracting enough people? it's not satisfying the "hardcore" players? it's not making enough money?
what constitutes as an mmorpg "sucking"?
THAT is not universal; it is subjective

yea, your thoughts are based on opinions of masses
but which masses?
every mass of players have the same opinion?
do the "casual" masses have the same opinions as the "hardcore" masses?
do the moneyspenders have the same opinions as the no-money players?
saying that your "opnion is based on the opinion of masses" is basically saying "some other people think as i do"
well duh
that can be said about anything
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04-09-2009   #51 (permalink)
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I didn't say they're not subjective, they indeed are, but you didn't listen to what I said which is...
There are studies that say that more people prefer these things, that means that these are preferred qualities in games for HARDCORE gamers (that's not a subjective term by the way) as opposed to the stuff we have now that is more geared towards casual players.

I'm not talking about excessive one time sittings, there are different 'models' for games, there is the 1000 hour game, the 100 hour game, and the 10 hour game, they are based on scales of how long the game would be 'about'.

Suck is a term I used to state my point about the game not meeting standards, while it's a subjective term, this whole conversation is subjective and I've stated facts as well to back me up, I've told you what these games lack that make them suck so bad, I'm not just going around saying "Yeah, that sucks cause it's totally like suck and crap", no I stated that they don't need any skill to play and everything can be easily reverted without enough cash.

My opinions are based on groups depending on what game is the target, if you truly want to break it up I can, but it would be beyond the scope of both this thread and this argument, the fact is there are different types of players depending on style, length of playing the game, when they adopt, and several other features. Based on this there are several demographics on what they want and what would be best to attract them as well as what types of players they enjoy playing with, but that's too much for this.

The fact is, despite all of these things MMORPGs are meant to be 1000-hour games, not 100-hour games like WoW with a lot of metagame, but 1000-hour games like EverQuest or most of these 'grind' games, and if they have end-game that's great, but you have enough content for the 1000-hour criterion.

You're not looking at this from a game-maker point of view, but from a players point of view, almost like looking at it from an employees point of view instead of the president of the company, therefore your view is very narrow and you can't accept that the general view may be outside of your own, and you want your own to be represented, that's fine, but not here.

Most MMORPGs just go through the motions in games today because they lack a lot of what an MMORPG needs, to make it an MMORPG, and that was there in the old games, but is missing now, some have tried bringing it back, but they've mostly failed.

Also, just a heads up for the sake of this conversation don't try and go all "That can be about anything" on me, because I CAN be more specific, but if you read as you say you have, you'd know that it's way past this.
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04-09-2009   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
The fact is, despite all of these things MMORPGs are meant to be 1000-hour games, not 100-hour games like WoW with a lot of metagame, but 1000-hour games like EverQuest or most of these 'grind' games, and if they have end-game that's great, but you have enough content for the 1000-hour criterion.
Bull called, it wants its shit back.

If you played WoW in the days of MC/BWL/AQ/Naxx40 and in the time of TBC (first expansion) before the 3.0 nerf patch and earlier content nerf patches I wouldn't be saying you are talking out of your ass. WotLK(current expansion) however doesn't even qualify as a 100-hour game, more like 40.
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04-09-2009   #53 (permalink)
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I love how the OP never came back to this thread. :/
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04-09-2009   #54 (permalink)
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ITT: The perfect MMO would be Nethack With Grinding: Online.

No GUI, No Fun, DOS Only. Final Destination.
 
04-09-2009   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumatora
ITT: The perfect MMO would be Nethack With Grinding: Online.

No GUI, No Fun, DOS Only. Final Destination.
Dos was teh sex back in the day. Sitting for hours starring at a black screen and that cursor trying to get games to work.
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04-10-2009   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metty
Bull called, it wants its shit back.

If you played WoW in the days of MC/BWL/AQ/Naxx40 and in the time of TBC (first expansion) before the 3.0 nerf patch and earlier content nerf patches I wouldn't be saying you are talking out of your ass. WotLK(current expansion) however doesn't even qualify as a 100-hour game, more like 40.
It doesn't have to be 100 hours total gameplay to qualify as a 100 hour game, it's an infrastructure reference point. >_>;

Quote:
Originally Posted by LolWut
I love how the OP never came back to this thread. :/
He did, several times, he also 'apologized', how weak, way to give up your stance! I never apologize to WoW-***s. >:| NEVER.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metty
Dos was teh sex back in the day. Sitting for hours starring at a black screen and that cursor trying to get games to work.
Yes, back in the day... too bad it's not really that sex anymore, although if you want graphics you go play a console... at least 'some' graphics are preferred these days.
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04-13-2009   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apathy
MMORPGS Are Great. You suck now?
Need to read Congrats on passing English class
 
04-14-2009   #58 (permalink)
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/facepalm

You still don't get the point that has been repeated oh so banally in the past few pages.
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04-14-2009   #59 (permalink)
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My ego isn't big enough for this thread.
 

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