ggFTW

ggFTW (http://ggftw.com/forum/)
-   Elsword Announcements (http://ggftw.com/forum/elsword-announcements/)
-   -   6.27 Update - Evolution 2 (http://ggftw.com/forum/elsword-announcements/122547-6-27-update-evolution-2-a.html)

Loreli 06-26-2013 12:56 PM

6.27 Update - Evolution 2
 
KR has implemented a skill system change.
  • The first skill is neutral so you can learn that but there are two columns underneath are where things get cray. If you learn one of them, you discount the other one, so that means you can't learn it. You aren't going down two strict routes so you can go left skill, right skill, left, left etc
  • There's a third column which is also neutral
  • Skills now go from a max level of 5 to level 20 for some skills. The higher the level the higher the level requirement to upgrade it, some go past 65 (the current cap in KR) which means they cannot be upgraded past that point.
  • Skills unlocked beforehand are unlocked after the change
  • They changed up skills, giving skills to classes and taking them away, for instance Eve gets photon flash at base
  • Over 100 skills will be added
  • Variations of the same skills have been added for which you have to choose between

Images explaining the skill system change;

http://i.imgur.com/vnNZyYq.png

http://i.imgur.com/dbgE9nN.png

To compensate for this there is a reset of course and Ariel has 0 ED full skill resets for a limited time. Other servers may not have this luxury when it comes.

Elwiki Babel's translation of skills available for each classes and their routes

KR site's information post about this


Not 100% for some information but I'll update when I know

PKShota 06-26-2013 06:20 PM

tl;dr everyone gets gimped in many ways

80% of special actives become active skills

also too many new skills where researching them all will break your brain

BoredomKillz 06-26-2013 06:22 PM

was too lazy to make this thread /o but here are the new skill icons

http://i.imgur.com/p4b1cGq.png


http://i.imgur.com/UPq7uQt.png

http://i.imgur.com/OUosXOT.png

http://www.pictureshack.us/images/72043_skillicon.jpg

PKShota 06-26-2013 07:05 PM

http://www.pictureshack.us/images/72043_skillicon.jpg



look and be amazed

NoobJr 06-27-2013 11:09 AM

This is the first time I see them make something that seems badly designed in every way.


There are two main aspects to the new skill tree: Skills having 20 levels (and requiring character levels to upgrade, which makes any job skill currently unmaxable), and the binary choice between skills.

First off, they just lengthened the upgrade curve for most skills, making us need more SP to get the same effect (and also a lot more clicks). This extremely disencourages experimentation, because ideally you want to have all the skills you are using maxed out, and due to the high SP costs, this requires planning and avoiding spending points on anything else, both of which are really bad for new players.

I'm not sure how powerful the later skills are compared to earlier skills, but either way has serious problems:

-If they're as strong as the earlier skills, there is no incentive to upgrade them instead of earlier skills, especially since it takes way more SP. And if you spent it on earlier skills, you won't have enough to max out later ones. Again, no experimentation allowed, so you can't go with what you find fun.

And since we can't currently max them out bexause of the level cap, I can only assume they either start out stronger or have stronger upgrades than earlier skills, otherwise at the current cap they're worthless as they would be much weaker (which actually seems to be the case for some).

-If they do eventually get stronger than earlier skills, then it is optimal to stop using the earlier skills in favor of them; and in that case, the best way to play is to not upgrade earlier skills at all, but wait until you have the best ones unlocked and upgrade these instead.

This optimal skill planning is present in MMOs, and Elsword had avoided that with the old system, which gave you freedom to experiment and eventually make a build limited by the amount of skills you can have on your bar, not by limiting your SP and forcing you to make crucial choices early on. And I think it worked pretty well.


And the binary choice between skills. This is even more disencouraging for new players. They can't test them, as they can't go back and try the other one, so they have to look up what they do exactly before choosing. It also needlessly breaks most people's gameplay style, and even hinders the B slot almost useless, because you most likely won't have enough interesting skills (especially considering the SP cost) to need it.
What's even worse is that we must remember PVP and PVE are both very important elements of the game, and they usually require very different skills. Making you unable to have them is just retarded. Now are we supposed to make two of the same character, one with PvE skills and the other with PvP, and get good equipment for both since we can't send elite/unique stuff between characters as far as I know?

The game wasn't designed around this skill choosing system. It is generally used when you have an idea what you're going for, and one side of the choice supports that, or they would be game breaking if combined. I really don't think these skills are like that. ESPECIALLY not two-thirds of them, which is how many require you to choose. ESPECIALLY in a game that features both PvP and PvE and requires two builds.


And there's the issue that they made some skills totally useless.
Sword Fire is now a 300MP skill that does 1/3 of its old damage.
Storm blade does even less than that and still costs 250.
Sword Enchant is chosen instead of Fire Fist, so no one's gonna pick that. (that's a great example of PvP vs PvE, too)


AND there's the issue of skill notes. These didn't get reset, so we keep the ones we had, and they're mostly useless now.


So to summarize:
-Static and much more limiting build, because of the SP cost and binary skill choice
-Requires looking up guides and planning, players will be afraid of experimenting or play unoptimally
-Potentially means you have to play with a weak character most of the time while waiting to unlock the skill you want to spend points on
-Disregard for the difference between PvP and PvE



This won't add variety. If anything, players will look up a build someone else made that mostly does what they think they want, and play crippled until they get it.

Loreli 06-27-2013 12:13 PM

There's a big difference between PvP and PvE now. Some skills are split into two versions, one that fairs more for PvP and one for PvE.

At 65, you have 442 skill points to spend without gnosis. So you aren't limited really. I maxed all base skills to 20 on my Ara and had 2xx points spare.

Planning is what Elsword needed. As it was, you could just get all the skills par a couple and just play. You can test as much as you want when this is released as I'm sure you'll get free skill resets if not, a mandatory reset is given. Actually knowing the benefits and disadvantages of things you're going to get, isn't a bad thing.

You don't have to be weak, it just depends on how you level your skills up. All in one to max it out first, or equally so you're skill set is balanced?

NoobJr 06-27-2013 01:37 PM

Early skills take 2 SP per level, so at 40 SP per skill, you can max 5 using half your skill points. But if many of your useful skills are later down, costing more, the amount you have really isn't much, especially considering there's some passives too.
There might be enough to max out 4 skills for the normal bar (again, I think the B slot will suffer), but you'll still have to plan ahead what your ultimate build is going to be, and I don't think that's good for newcomers.

Right now we're able to experiment, but I was talking about new players. They'll have to look up what skills do before choosing them, their impact on a build, stuff the game can't tell you and you can't experiment with.
Maybe I won't be able to tell for sure how this impacts a new player without making a new character myself, but it definetely seems inferior to the old system.



As for skills acting different for PvP and PvE, I haven't heard about that. But I know I have to choose between Fire Fist and Sword Enchant, with Fire Fist being better in PvP and Sword Enchant in PvE.
My build wasn't dramatically different for PvP, but I imagine other players who are more into PvP than I am would have an issue with this. This system really seems to conflict this game type.

In the end, the ultimate goal should be an enjoyable game, and I don't see an upside to this change. If they just wanted to add some planning, it didn't have to be so dramatic and lock 1/3 of your skills. Plus another 1/3 that you can't max out so it's suboptimal to use.


Also, considering how long it takes for the max level to raise, we're not maxing these skills anytime soon. It seems like a cheap way to add some progression whenever it gets raised without having to actually create new skills. Heck, they even turned Storm Blade into a 2nd job skill so every class has a 300 MP skill, so I don't think they intend to add any more after this.

Loreli 06-27-2013 03:01 PM

You can't max all the skills you want, that's just something you have to deal with. If you want to optimise your set out, then max out the skill you use the most or whichever you see best for your needs.

Before this, we had it easy. Just jump straight into the game and a first glance at a skill and we got it. There wasn't really any danger in putting a skill point into something. Now that there is, it makes people think about their builds and which skills to level to the max, which to leave at a certain point, which to learn and to discard. So they've basically made it non-faceroll.

I feel like I was the only one who read up on skills even though we could pretty much get them all.

It's really not that hard to cap. I don't see the problem to be honest, it's a system that should've been implemented in the first place.

NoobJr 06-27-2013 04:25 PM

I'm not a fan of planning in games (especially online) due to things I've mentioned, like having to look up too much stuff beforehand in order to play properly, but this seems like planning done wrong. It seems too limiting for the sake of it.

You CAN max out just the skills you want to use (unless you want to fill the B slot, that's too expensive), but that means not putting any points into other skills. So if you want to make the most out of your build, that's the way to go, and why I don't like planning.
If you do that, you can't try and do something different, like when I came back from a one year hiatus and tried out things until I settled back in with a different build than before. You'll be stuck with that skill set forever.

To me, Elsword's greatest strength has always been the gameplay. And adding all these limitations that severely hurt the gameplay just to force players to plan ahead for their characters doesn't sit right with me. The way they did it seems really lazy and unfitting.

Veloze 06-27-2013 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loreli (Post 1824343)
You can't max all the skills you want, that's just something you have to deal with. If you want to optimise your set out, then max out the skill you use the most or whichever you see best for your needs.

Before this, we had it easy. Just jump straight into the game and a first glance at a skill and we got it. There wasn't really any danger in putting a skill point into something. Now that there is, it makes people think about their builds and which skills to level to the max, which to leave at a certain point, which to learn and to discard. So they've basically made it non-faceroll.

I feel like I was the only one who read up on skills even though we could pretty much get them all.

It's really not that hard to cap. I don't see the problem to be honest, it's a system that should've been implemented in the first place.

So, what exactly is good about this?
What makes you think researching and pre-planning everything is better than simply opening up the game and enjoying it? Why do you think less options make for a better game?

It's not like anything is going to change anyways. People are still going to wait and ask for the opinions of experienced players before doing anything too crazy.
I can see what KOG was trying to do with this update, but all it does is gimp characters and add a layer of frustration over complexity when it comes to skills.

NoobJr 06-27-2013 06:57 PM

.....in the end, I think my biggest gripe is really the Sword Fire nerf removal.

Now he's back to square one, without any damage dealing skills.
Even with the best build I could get, my dungeon time still increased more than 50%. Not to mention taking a lot more damage since I can't kill anything fast.

Loreli 06-28-2013 08:55 AM

People weren't testing builds before, they tested layouts. There's a difference.

Not all classes are gimped, some come out pretty good.

PKShota 06-28-2013 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loreli (Post 1824443)
Not all classes are gimped, some come out pretty good.

Yep and I am happy because

™€쳐 ‹*Š‚œ 공Œ€„Š” ˜ƒ

^ top tier thar

Veloze 06-28-2013 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loreli (Post 1824443)
People weren't testing builds before, they tested layouts. There's a difference.

?????
Gotta explain it to me cause I'm not seeing a difference here

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKShota (Post 1824460)

That's not top-tier anything really
The Elsword just ran into everything

Loreli 06-28-2013 11:37 AM

Builds are your skills, beforehand you could get all of them practically. There were no builds. Now that you have to choose between skills, there are builds.

Layouts are the skills you have in your slots. Those aren't builds.

Also, that NW was good. NW's came up on the better side of this update.

PKShota 06-28-2013 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loreli (Post 1824472)
Also, that NW was good. NW's came up on the better side of this update.

^

if there was a list of who results as the better job, NW, RF, DW and EM made it up there for sure. Everyone else, unsure, but definitely LK got dropped hard from what I've observed

Loreli 06-28-2013 03:46 PM

LK isn't that much of a drop tbh. It's just different and nerfed a bit.

I'd say for sure that CN was the one that came on the bottom from all the classes. Although she's the char I was planning on maining when the new server came out, I still stand by this update. It sucks that your favourite classes have to choose between your two favourite skills, or that they nerfed it but they just released it. They're probably going to tweak things as time goes on and buff things here and there. They just changed something in a ninja patch today.

It's definitely not the most well executed revamp they've done. There are points where it's pretty stupid and unnecessary but it's going to change gradually. I don't think they'll revert the system so for it's just #dealwithit for now and prepare.

The only problem for I see people have, excluding all the blah blah it requires effort to play now, my char got nerfed etc etc is where a char was in need of a buff or was fine and instead got nerfed. The prime example being CN who got nerfed all over and only buffed in Elegant Steps which is just lol. Does it mean I'm not going to play her? No. Because she's fun to me.

The only other 'valid' issue I see is where we have to choose between two important skills or skills that are very situational so it's hard to choose. But you know, that's the deal. It's making you pick the skills you want the most so you're tailoring your char to your desires but there are limitations. And limitations are what Elsword players weren't used to. If we're being completely honest, skills before were a faceroll it was easy to just do whatever you wanted and throw your cares into the wind but now that something means something and we have consequences I think people are overreacting to it and are just flipping for no reason.

People are having quitting sales and complaining and not cashing and doing this that and the other. What's the point? All this kerfuffle over mounts and marriage and things. So.. whether it's a character or the game itself, if it's fun play it, if not, don't.

NoobJr 06-28-2013 07:32 PM

OK, it seems most classes got nerfed, removing most crazy damage in dungeons and making it slower/more balanced in a party, and painfully slower to solo.

As for Rune Slayer, he actually got a counterweight to the damage loss by gaining WoTS faster (Sword Wave), but it already got a bit nerfed today (Sword Wave).
It really sucks that his most damage dealing skill is, once again, the base class Triple Geyser. And there's no skill to properly fulfill the intermediate role of Sword Fire, regardless of its damage, so it's hard to come up with a 4-skill layout to stick with.


I still stand by most of my points about this system being too needlessly restricting, especially the binary skill selection. There's no point in putting 2/3 of your skills in that, effectively stopping you from learning about your own character's other features, making either pointless or unfair choices.

This selection could work for a few skills like the new Heat/Freeze Runes (though everyone will go with freeze), but putting Fire Fist against Sword Enchant, a PvP versus a PvE skill, goes against the game's dual nature.

Because they decided that 2/3 of your skill tree must be like that, there will inevitably be stupid choices because the game just wasn't designed for this.


Why don't they have a test server for this crap? It's the most controversial update ever because it's the first one to truly change the gameplay and progression dramatically, and they just put it out there. It's begging for drama.



Since you mention it being fun, I'm not enjoying the new style they're forcing me into. Certainly not more than my old, now broken and impossible style, even with 8 instead of 4 skills.

Because it relies entirely on WoTS, the new Sword Wave is a necessity. But I don't like using it. It feels light, non-impactful, I don't like it nearly as much as Wind Blade. But I must use it, because it's the single most WoTS efficient skill there is now. And it's an effective skill, but it's just not fun to use. That also means I'm never using Assault Slash, even though it's fun. Stupid binary choice.
I also don't like looking too much at how the WoTS bar is doing because it distracts me, and trying to be efficient with it makes me attack poorly.

I would have liked to play with the new Freeze Rune, but there is no room for it in a 4-skill layout. It's too weak to rely on, even if it's fun to use.
I have to use Triple Geyser as a damage dealer, which I don't mind, since it's both fun and effective. I just don't like relying on a 300 MP skill as I can easily not have enough, or have none after it.

And, obviously, the lack of a good intermediate skill. Rising Slash and Phoenix Talon are the only choices, and both feel light and do little damage. The new Rising Slash In A Straight Line is nice, but since I already have a skill note for the old one, it would be unoptimal not to pick that one. So I'm tending towards Phoenix Talon as the most fun even though it nearly fails as an intermediate skill due to the 250 MP cost.
Maybe I'll try Flame Geyser. Not only another base skill, but his FIRST skill.

Bottom line is: Even if RS isn't technically as weakened as other classes were, his new style just isn't fun to me. I can't choose the skills I still find fun, and it doesn't feel like the same character.

So yeah, not having fun. Especially not after coming back and finally feeling like my character was useful.

Loreli 06-29-2013 03:46 AM

Not everyone is weak

[Elsword] Code Empress 7-1 Dungeon Play - YouTube
Mareg uses this update to his advantage, upgrading skills he sees useful for his needs, which is what Kog wants you to do.

It sounds harsh but you have to choose between PvE and PvP. But in most cases it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

Kenzor 06-29-2013 08:04 AM

Pretty huge update, I feel like patching my game again...

Also I saw a video of one of Aisha's new passives "Freezing point research" that basically makes her fireballs all into ice balls, does that mean Dark Mage's "Gravity Ball Research" does the same...? Why is this update bad again?

The game actually makes the skill tree into a...TREE where you make choices instead of unlocking 95% of the tree and only leaving out really useless stuff.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.