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06-29-2013   #21 (permalink)
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Well, I said MOST classes were weakened, as in they have incredibly reduced damage compared to before. So we don't see as much crazy OHKOing in dungeons, so party play seems much more balanced. Now I hopefully won't be getting the big white message telling me I'm useless because everything dies before I even get to them.

But soloing was very well balanced for my character, and now he's underpowered. But most importantly, he's boring to me. I have no more will to solo things just for fun.
I think the only solution to that really is to take another long break from the game (for the first time, not because I got bored of it), and come back with a fresh mind. a.k.a playing horribly and relearning everything.
Hopefully they'll have mostly rebalanced things until then.
But I still have to stick with it for a month to use up the free selling service tickets I've been given. Not that I'm selling much, with the huge deflation.


Having to choose between PvP and PvE in a game that highlighs both is bad game design, plain and simple. They REALLY need to rethink that.
And that surprised me because, despite imbalance issues and arguably selling power, they've really stayed on the side of good game design until now.


Quote:
The game actually makes the skill tree into a...TREE where you make choices instead of unlocking 95% of the tree and only leaving out really useless stuff.
As a programmer I have to disagree with this definition of a TREE.... not that it was a tree to begin with. But hardly any games define it correctly anyway, so meh.

The issues people have with it I think can be summed up in:
-Instead of 90%, you now have 30% of your skills. A bit extreme.
-Not all classes got cool stuff. I've heard mixed reactions to Aisha, but I can only comment on Rune Slayer since it's the only character I play. And I already did that.
-The forced binary choice of skills doesn't fit in the game and needlessly lowers variety.
-Skills are broken and unbalanced because they DIDN'T PLAY TEST THIS THING. What the hell?
 
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06-29-2013   #22 (permalink)
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The only problem is with this update is the revamp. Not the system change. The revamp came with the system change. There's a difference.

The revamp is what made you weaker and in some cases was unjust. The new system is fine.
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06-29-2013   #23 (permalink)
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Haven't touched KR in like 5 months and any patch is enough to get be back on x.x But, I'll probably wait for the EN server...
 
06-29-2013   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
Well, I said MOST classes were weakened, as in they have incredibly reduced damage compared to before. So we don't see as much crazy OHKOing in dungeons, so party play seems much more balanced. Now I hopefully won't be getting the big white message telling me I'm useless because everything dies before I even get to them.

But soloing was very well balanced for my character, and now he's underpowered. But most importantly, he's boring to me. I have no more will to solo things just for fun.
I think the only solution to that really is to take another long break from the game (for the first time, not because I got bored of it), and come back with a fresh mind. a.k.a playing horribly and relearning everything.
Hopefully they'll have mostly rebalanced things until then.
But I still have to stick with it for a month to use up the free selling service tickets I've been given. Not that I'm selling much, with the huge deflation.
Sounds more like you're complaining about your class being nerfed than the actual system being flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
Having to choose between PvP and PvE in a game that highlighs both is bad game design, plain and simple. They REALLY need to rethink that.
Highlighting both PvE and PvP isn't a good idea in MMOs either because not everyone necessarily enjoys being forced to do PvE in order to PvP. Plenty of people want to stick to just one side of the game.

A better solution would be to allow players to have two separate builds - one for PvP and one for PvE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
And that surprised me because, despite imbalance issues and arguably selling power, they've really stayed on the side of good game design until now.
This is completely opinionated and I would rather not discuss the entire history of Elsword case by case, so I'll just say I disagree and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by NoobJr
The issues people have with it I think can be summed up in:
-Instead of 90%, you now have 30% of your skills. A bit extreme.
I hope you're aware that 90% is also extreme. 30% may be a little too restrictive, but there is nothing inherently wrong with making choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
-Not all classes got cool stuff. I've heard mixed reactions to Aisha, but I can only comment on Rune Slayer since it's the only character I play. And I already did that.

-Skills are broken and unbalanced because they DIDN'T PLAY TEST THIS THING. What the hell?
Balance issues can be argued during any point in the history of the game, not just this skill tree update.

People can ask KOG what the hell they were thinking when they made Night Watcher with such situational skills and low damage output. Elemental Masters and Grand Archers had to deal with unreliable melee strings and MP gaining methods for years in a game where those things are important for a class to function.

That's still a more personal gripe about a class being nerfed than a universal problem with the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
-The forced binary choice of skills doesn't fit in the game and needlessly lowers variety.
"Variety"? You're telling me your build before this update had "variety" when it involved maxing everything and just spamming Sword Fire/Sword Enchant? The binary choice forces variety because you can't get everything.

There is nothing wrong with choosing between two different variations of Rising Slash, Revolver Cannon, Heaven's Fist, Shockwave, etc.

I will agree however that there are some cases where both skill choices are essential and we shouldn't be forced to choose between them, like Maelstrom Rage/Rage Cutter, Fire Fist/Sword Enchant, etc.
 
06-29-2013   #25 (permalink)
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On another note, I find it interesting that both DC and TT have some version of Artillery Strike...

DC's Artillery Strike hits really hard though, I think TT's is DC's pre-revamp one.
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06-29-2013   #26 (permalink)
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You could get more than ninety percent skills before and more than thirty percent now.

34 skills in total (for CN at least, I counted 33 for some other classes) that's from base to 2nd job including passives. You can get 23 skills, again including passives.

Let's do some maths c:. 23/34 x100 = 67.6470588235% of your skills you can get. (Would be 69% using other class route's 33 skills.)

'But that's with passives, who cares about them' you say? Well well. Let's take IP for this one. 34 skills. He has 26 actives. You can get 17 of them. That's 50% usable actives by the end of it. 17 skills is 4 sets of slots and another skill on top. That's plenty skills.

There's no shortage of skills, gameplay can still be very varied. To me, this update favours players who stay without B-slots since they can get closer to maxing 4 skills instead of a B-slotter who can just max one or two maybe and spread across remaining skill points to the others.

Your issues are with the balance update side of this update and not the skill system. Since the only issue with the new system is where you have to choose between two really good skills but that's just how it is and that improves variety of gameplay since you don't see the same people running around with the same skills. It's the skills they choose for their needs.
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06-29-2013   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Sounds more like you're complaining about your class being nerfed than the actual system being flawed.
I've done both things, really. First I talked about my issues with the system itself, and since the point of still having fun was mentioned, I went into detail why I'm not having fun with the new skills.
And there's also the non-personal point there that since everyone was nerfed, party play is more balanced.

Quote:
Highlighting both PvE and PvP isn't a good idea in MMOs either because not everyone necessarily enjoys being forced to do PvE in order to PvP. Plenty of people want to stick to just one side of the game.

A better solution would be to allow players to have two separate builds - one for PvP and one for PvE.
Agree with that. I myself always tend towards PvE. And Elsword is no exception to PvP being optional but PvE not, because you need it to get stuff.
Since they went through the trouble of making a binary skill choice system, allowing a PvP and PvE build would make sense.

Quote:
This is completely opinionated and I would rather not discuss the entire history of Elsword case by case, so I'll just say I disagree and leave it at that.
I intentionally didn't go into imbalance or the business method because it isn't the point and I'm not an expert on that, but I have always analysed the game design independently of those things in the same way I've analysed it now, and it always had plenty of good points.
But I might give them too much credit sometimes because I started by comparing it to Grand Chase.

Quote:
I hope you're aware that 90% is also extreme. 30% may be a little too restrictive, but there is nothing inherently wrong with making choices.
And I don't see why they had to go from one extreme to another. There is nothing inherently wrong with having no choices either, it's all about how it works in the game. Since everything was designed with the old system in mind, this extreme transition is causing problems. They shouldn't have been so dramatic with it.

Quote:
Balance issues can be argued during any point in the history of the game, not just this skill tree update.
Well, I summed up people's complaints since he asked why they were mad.
The lack of play testing is an important point. Since gameplay is the core of this game, throwing an update that changes everything without much testing is just asking for backlash and drama. Especially when they hyped it with "100 new skills!" while hiding that you'd only have 1/3 of your skills.

Quote:
"Variety"? You're telling me your build before this update had "variety" when it involved maxing everything and just spamming Sword Fire/Sword Enchant? The binary choice forces variety because you can't get everything.
No, by variety I meant your layout (thx for the vocab), the skills you actually use in a mission.
Since you had everything, you could try out everything and find what works best for you. Because of that, I hardly ever saw someone using the same skills as me. There would be people with Wind Blade, Assault Slash, Splash Explosion. People with Phoenix Talon or Rising Slash instead of Sword Fire.

Now, thanks to the needlessly restricting binary choice system, some skills are gonna be shut out not because they're useless (like in the old system), but because their alternative is much more important.

Assault Slash has to compete with Sword Wave, which fills your WoTS bar almost instantly and is pretty much essential now. Sword Enchant might still get picked but there's a new Critical Sword skill that might compensate not having it, so it might be gone too.

So they added a new way for skills to be ignored from your whole build. Not because they're worthless or low priority, not even because having both skills would be OP (which is one of the reasons to implement this system, which certainly isn't applicable to 2/3 of your tree), but by their rather arbitrary decision to make that a choice.

It would've been fine and very justifiable, not to mention interesting, if the choice really was about a different version of the skill. But that would mean creating a ton of skills and they didn't do that, so there's just a couple.


---


Quote:
You could get more than ninety percent skills before and more than thirty percent now.
You can get more than 30% now, but only if you don't put much points into them. And then whatever layout you pick will be weaker than it would be if you just didn't get yourself these backup choices.

If you do want to focus on what you find useful, you have 442 points. Initially skills cost 2 SP per level, making it 40 for max level, which means at most you'd get 11 skills, which is around 1/3.
If you go and get the whole 2/3 that's technically available, you'll be able to try different layouts, but all of them will be much weaker than normal.

If planning is to be a thing, you can't dismiss that people will want to play optimally and therefore plan ahead, and that means being focused and closer to the 1/3.

(for easier math, Rune Slayer has 33 skills, 22 of which are in the choices, so yay fractions)
 
06-29-2013   #28 (permalink)
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Nobody wants you to level up all skills. Just the ones you want/use the most. So in the end, just 8 or a couple more that you want to switch out for.

But you're going to have to plan and it'll be hard choosing to do what with what. But that's Elsword now. I doubt they're going to go back since this update isn't even that bad par the clear, in some cases, rebalance mistakes but they will address those in the future.
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06-29-2013   #29 (permalink)
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That's why it's unrealistic to say you went from 90% skills to 2/3 rather than 1/3. And there aren't enough skills in the game to say 1/3 is flexible.


This update would've been MUCH better if instead of doing all characters at once and making a much smaller skill tree, they did them one at a time, adding ALTERNATE VERSIONS of the current skills. That would make much more sense for customization and variety, remove pointless or painful choices, not make a max level character with only 11 skills, and have much less backlash due to being a long process.

It would've brought more life into the game instead of breaking gameplay styles, and have a much more enjoyable and newbie-friendly kind of planning.

As they did it, it was a bad business and design decision. I would hope they see the missed potential and redo the trees properly, but seeing as they probably did it this way to avoid having to make more skills, I find that very unlikely.




(backing up my bad decision viewpoint)

Bad business decision: lack of playtesting, bad marketing hyping it up (ironically calling it Evolution when it's really just limiting you) which only made the backlash worse

Bad design decision: disregard for PvP/PvE double nature, throwing all these skills in a tree system that doesn't fit them because they weren't made for it

Both: doing everything at once, so instead of doing a proper tree for everyone, minimizing design quality for each character, affecting all players at once and ensuring maximum backlash

Last edited by NoobJr; 06-29-2013 at 06:26 PM.
 
06-29-2013   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
That's why it's unrealistic to say you went from 90% skills to 2/3 rather than 1/3. And there aren't enough skills in the game to say 1/3 is flexible.


This update would've been MUCH better if instead of doing all characters at once and making a much smaller skill tree, they did them one at a time, adding ALTERNATE VERSIONS of the current skills. That would make much more sense for customization and variety, remove pointless or painful choices, not make a max level character with only 11 skills, and have much less backlash due to being a long process.
Not even all classes were affected negatively from this patch. Wind Sneaker and Night Watcher for example can still get all of their must-max actives and get quite few new passives and actives to chose from in this patch. Reckless Fist gets their own version of Armor Break. Code Empress gets a better version of Heaven's Fist for PvE.

It's also impossible to implement this kind of thing one class at a time because this is a revamp that changes the skill mechanics of the entire game.

Yes, I can agree that being forced to choose between Fire Fist and Sword Enchant is a poor choice because both have been essential for a long time, but complaining about having to choose between the physical Assault Slash and the magical Sword Wave? That's just being pedantic.

You only have 4/8 skill slots to begin with. Some classes like Lord Knight might be hurt being forced to choose between Double Slash and Armageddon Blade, but for Wind Sneakers choosing between Dive Kick Bombing and Violent Attack was something that had to be done even before this patch because there wasn't enough room nor any point to have both tier 3 special actives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
It would've brought more life into the game instead of breaking gameplay styles, and have a much more enjoyable and newbie-friendly kind of planning.

As they did it, it was a bad business and design decision. I would hope they see the missed potential and redo the trees properly, but seeing as they probably did it this way to avoid having to make more skills, I find that very unlikely.
No, "newbie-friendly" would be removing SP resets from the cash shop and making them free to allow players to experiment with multiple skills and builds firsthand instead of having to look up builds and planners on external fansites.

But no, we can't have that because we're the ones who chose to play a pay to win "free to play" game that has to nickel and dime us with cash shop features that aren't really optional but are instead essential to the game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
Bad business decision: lack of playtesting, bad marketing hyping it up
This however I will agree with.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 06-29-2013 at 07:13 PM.
 
06-30-2013   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
That's why it's unrealistic to say you went from 90% skills to 2/3 rather than 1/3. And there aren't enough skills in the game to say 1/3 is flexible.

Including the new ones we have now, theyre adding 100 new skills. That is variety.

It just sounds like you're complaining about having to put thought into your builds when really, it's what should have been in place at the very start of the game.

Before this update, even with a 65 cap, I never put a point into anything that I didn't know about. I even capped a base ara to 65 maxing only three skills that were needed and the four passives because I'd researched them and put them into my playstyle.

They don't test everything. It'd delay updates too long. Did NA test out the BtM patch to make sure spurt was okay? Nope. They just released her and fixed it later on (I think at least).

They're being generous giving out free sp resets for two weeks. So people are doing the research you want them to do for your chars on other servers if your servers don't give them out. Everyone who plays testing them out > them testing it out.
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06-30-2013   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
It's also impossible to implement this kind of thing one class at a time because this is a revamp that changes the skill mechanics of the entire game.
I'm not sure about that. The skill tree code may be different, but it doesn't seem too troublesome to have other characters using the old skill tree while they don't have a new one.
A more likely reason for doing it all at once is that they wanted to rebalance everyone's damage at once, since they intended to lower it all to make dungeons more balanced.
It still seems like a better long term choice to do them one by one, though. Not just to do a better job of it, but to minimize the drama. But again, it would've been a costly process.

Quote:
but complaining about having to choose between the physical Assault Slash and the magical Sword Wave? That's just being pedantic.
The problem with that choice is that Sword Wave charges up a crapton of WoTS, making it useful in any layout. Since there's no more damage dealing skills, the strongest playstyle now is to go through WoTS really fast, making it a much better choice than Assault Slash for any build.
So by putting a not bad skill like Assault Slash against a much more technically useful skill like Sword Wave, they're pretty much removing Assault Slash, even though it's a good skill.

Quote:
You only have 4/8 skill slots to begin with.
My issue with having only 11 skills is that you'll hardly have the flexibility to change your layout if you want to play different for a bit. It really can get boring to have the same skills for too long.
People without B slot may not feel that as much, but 11 skills doesn't seem like much for a max level character. Especially when it looks like they won't ever be adding more after this.

Quote:
No, "newbie-friendly" would be removing SP resets from the cash shop and making them free to allow players to experiment with multiple skills and builds firsthand instead of having to look up builds and planners on external fansites.
There are varying degrees of newbie-friendliness. Trust me, I'm a noob.
Right now the most unfriendly aspect I see is not being able to try out the skills you have to choose from. You HAVE to look it up or choose based on text only. Even Grand Chase doesn't have that problem.

---

Quote:
Including the new ones we have now, theyre adding 100 new skills. That is variety.
Already went through why the binary choice kills variety much more than the skills add, and how it should've been done to actually add variety.
...wait, weren't these all the 100 skills? Did they say they're still adding more? Because there's only so much time with the SP reset, and the skill trees seem pretty finished.

Quote:
It just sounds like you're complaining about having to put thought into your builds when really, it's what should have been in place at the very start of the game.
No, I agreed that the system itself isn't inherently bad (and neither was the previous one), just the way they did it is lazy and full of problems. And I've been talking about all these problems.

Quote:
They don't test everything. It'd delay updates too long.
I hear they had a test server for the field update? I wasn't around at the time so I didn't see people talking about it, but if they're not gonna test it, at least don't do it all at once and affect everyone for maximum drama.

Quote:
They're being generous giving out free sp resets for two weeks.
They'd be idiots not to do so.
They might consider this a test phase, even though the system change is permanent, but the backlash is really to be expected since people don't deal with that very well. And since they made sure to get the most backlash they could, I don't know how they intend to get any good feedback out of this. So, bad way to carry it out.
 
06-30-2013   #33 (permalink)
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the skill system is pretty good now, of course when it comes to two skills that are crucial to your playstyle then it gets a bit iffy.

All we need to do now is wait for the buffs and tweaks since the balance part of this update is where most people are flipping. Because the way I see it, people are confusing the two and blaming the skill system instead of the balance that came behind it.

Another example of changing your playstyle and utilizing the new system;
[Elsword] Code Battle Seraph 7-3 Dungeon Play - YouTube
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No, I think the fundamental flaw in the way they did it is because they put the old skills, which are pretty much independent to each other, in the binary choice system instead of making skills that fit the system. This is why some gameplay styles are broken now, not just because of the nerfs.

If they wanted to make you choose which skills to pick, they could do that just with the higher SP cost per skill. Since the skills were already obtainable together, there was no bad chemistry between them to force them to be incompatible with this system.

It's an useless layer of complication that hurts usability, and at best would be redundant because of the SP cost. Right now it's bad because some choices are broken, but even if they find an ideal setup, it'll still be redundant and probably kill off some skills because the other choice is much better.


So they either had to take more time and make a lot more skills to have as alternates, or not have the binary choice at all and just increase the SP cost for maxing out stuff.
 
06-30-2013   #35 (permalink)
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There's no real fundamental flaw. The only case where the choice is difficult is GA passives and that's it. The rest is pve vs pvp but still you know which choice is best and it's not as if the skill is useless in the other situation.
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Originally Posted by NoobJr
I'm not sure about that. The skill tree code may be different, but it doesn't seem too troublesome to have other characters using the old skill tree while they don't have a new one.
A more likely reason for doing it all at once is that they wanted to rebalance everyone's damage at once, since they intended to lower it all to make dungeons more balanced.
It still seems like a better long term choice to do them one by one, though. Not just to do a better job of it, but to minimize the drama. But again, it would've been a costly process.
That's like saying they're capable of making only certain classes experience the Hunting Fields (when it was new) while others can wait and walk through the towns the old fashioned way.

It's not client side, so I really doubt it's possible to implement one class at a time. Job advancement is a different story because they can just make the quests or items not visible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
The problem with that choice is that Sword Wave charges up a crapton of WoTS, making it useful in any layout. Since there's no more damage dealing skills, the strongest playstyle now is to go through WoTS really fast, making it a much better choice than Assault Slash for any build.
So by putting a not bad skill like Assault Slash against a much more technically useful skill like Sword Wave, they're pretty much removing Assault Slash, even though it's a good skill.
Assault Slash wasn't even a mandatory skill for Elswords before the patch. All three subclasses have better alternatives for 100MP specials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
My issue with having only 11 skills is that you'll hardly have the flexibility to change your layout if you want to play different for a bit. It really can get boring to have the same skills for too long.
People without B slot may not feel that as much, but 11 skills doesn't seem like much for a max level character. Especially when it looks like they won't ever be adding more after this.
Many people with B-slots have been playing through the game without changing their layout even once for years before this update. Not everyone thinks the same way.

Some people don't like having a situational layout and would rather have one that can be used in all dungeons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
There are varying degrees of newbie-friendliness. Trust me, I'm a noob.
Right now the most unfriendly aspect I see is not being able to try out the skills you have to choose from. You HAVE to look it up or choose based on text only. Even Grand Chase doesn't have that problem.
... and how is this any different from the old system? The game provided you nothing but text on the skills before as well. Either people choose to experiment and risk screwing up their build or look it up beforehand. It's always been like this.
 
06-30-2013   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
There's no real fundamental flaw.
Well, that's it for this discussion then. I already went through every flaw I see in it, so there's nowhere to go now.

---

Quote:
That's like saying they're capable of making only certain classes experience the Hunting Fields (when it was new) while others can wait and walk through the towns the old fashioned way.
Bad comparison in terms of reasoning because the fields aren't linked to a character, but having something check your character and behave differently is an easy thing to do. They couldn't make you stay in the old hub world since it's a global thing and that would be having two worlds, but they could make you teleport directly to the next town if they wanted to.
Since they don't have to erase the code for the old skill tree menu and SP acquiring, they could've had a check in everything related to the system, which isn't a lot and they had to go and edit it anyway, and have it do the new thing if your character is marked to have the new system, otherwise do the old thing. It really doesn't look complicated from a programming standpoint. Would hardly cost anything compared to the cost of actually making lots of new skills.


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Assault Slash wasn't even a mandatory skill for Elswords before the patch. All three subclasses have better alternatives for 100MP specials.
It wasn't mandatory, yet it was used. The alternatives weren't "better", as far as I know Assault Slash is potentially the highest damage dealer to compensate for hitting less enemies and knocking them down, so it was pretty useful if you wanted it. I saw it a lot, even used it in some dungeons where enemies super armor a lot.
So while it's a fine skill to use in terms of effect, it's now silly to choose it because Sword Wave is much more useful anytime. That's making it needlessly more costly to use it, and I expect it to be a much rarer sight from now on.

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Many people with B-slots have been playing through the game without changing their layout even once for years before this update. Not everyone thinks the same way.
B slot gives you a lot more flexibility to make a fixed layout with varied enough gameplay, so that doesn't surprise me. Without it, changing the layout depending on what you do is much more common.

But it's not just about changing it based on the situation. Some people like to change just to play differently for a bit. It's not everyone, but it's a valid way to do things.

Again, without B slot you still have enough skills to change your layout a bit, and with it you'll barely have enough for a fixed one. But it's pretty little for a game that focuses so heavily on action gameplay. Or at least that's how I saw their intent with the game until now.

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... and how is this any different from the old system? The game provided you nothing but text on the skills before as well. Either people choose to experiment and risk screwing up their build or look it up beforehand. It's always been like this.
The binary choice is different because you can't put one point into one skill, see if you like it, and invest on it or go back to the other one. If it were just the high SP cost per skill, you could do that, but the choice is the useless layer of complication that makes it worse than before.



(headache, so I might've not expressed myself too well this time)
 
07-01-2013   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NoobJr
Bad comparison in terms of reasoning because the fields aren't linked to a character, but having something check your character and behave differently is an easy thing to do. They couldn't make you stay in the old hub world since it's a global thing and that would be having two worlds, but they could make you teleport directly to the next town if they wanted to.
Since they don't have to erase the code for the old skill tree menu and SP acquiring, they could've had a check in everything related to the system, which isn't a lot and they had to go and edit it anyway, and have it do the new thing if your character is marked to have the new system, otherwise do the old thing. It really doesn't look complicated from a programming standpoint. Would hardly cost anything compared to the cost of actually making lots of new skills.
Only the skills themselves are linked to characters. Adding new skills or changing the level you acquire them is not new for MMOs, even this one. They've already done so before when they added Roll for Elsword, Fire Road for Aisha, Rising Falcon for Rena, etc.

The new binary skill system and different SP growths are universal. I find it strange that you understand how complicated it would be to have both old and new versions of hub worlds running together in a game but seem to believe having two different versions of a game mechanic would be simple.

Sure, it's very possible for them to dump everything into that third column on the right so that the skills aren't subjected to the binary choice, but disabling the system altogether for specific characters is something that will not happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
It wasn't mandatory, yet it was used. The alternatives weren't "better", as far as I know Assault Slash is potentially the highest damage dealer to compensate for hitting less enemies and knocking them down, so it was pretty useful if you wanted it. I saw it a lot, even used it in some dungeons where enemies super armor a lot.
So while it's a fine skill to use in terms of effect, it's now silly to choose it because Sword Wave is much more useful anytime. That's making it needlessly more costly to use it, and I expect it to be a much rarer sight from now on.
Sword Wave is still only one hit on a single target and a regular active, meaning it also lacks the superflash invulnerability a cheap special active like Assault Slash has.

It's also possible that Sword Wave filling that much WoTS meter on a single hit may not be intended, since a number of other skills are also buggy (e.g. WS new Airlenna - Sylph doing nothing)

So while Sword Wave is better (why are you complaining about getting a new skill that is good again?), Assault Slash still provides some utility that Sword Wave doesn't have.

Of course, that's not to mention that both skills in this case are Vitality, when many Elswords prefer Destruction skills for Vitality WoTS for MP to spam specials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
B slot gives you a lot more flexibility to make a fixed layout with varied enough gameplay, so that doesn't surprise me. Without it, changing the layout depending on what you do is much more common.

But it's not just about changing it based on the situation. Some people like to change just to play differently for a bit. It's not everyone, but it's a valid way to do things.

Again, without B slot you still have enough skills to change your layout a bit, and with it you'll barely have enough for a fixed one. But it's pretty little for a game that focuses so heavily on action gameplay. Or at least that's how I saw their intent with the game until now.
My interpretation was that the game was intended to be played with 8 skill slots from the beginning, and the 4 skill slot restriction was merely a business decision to nickel and dime players via the cash shop. People can "deal with it," but that managing to cope doesn't make it a better system.

Void Princess for example needs Hell Stone, Teleport, Mana Intake, Death Field, and Plasma Cutter/Aging on at all times. In dungeons with flying mobs, Aisha will want to add Flame Circle to her layout. With only 4 skill slots, that leaves a VP player to put Hell Stone (highest damaging 100 MP skill), Teleport (mobility), and Mana Intake (instant 30-60 MP noted) because they are easily her most useful skills. However, without Death Field a VP now has a more difficult time field clearing mobs, and without their 300MP skill on hand, her boss/burst damage nuking is nerfed.

An Elsword class with even more important actives is even worse: a Lord Knight needs Stoic for super armor, Counterattack for negative melee attack damage, Armor Break for defense reduction utility, and Roll for small invulnerability frames and the ability to instantly get behind an enemy. With only 4 skill slots, a max level Lord Knight essentially has no room for special actives. You could sacrifice the important utility your actives for a special active, but in either case your versatility is limited.

Remember that you weren't allowed to access your skill window to change your skill layout during dungeons either (it would lock you to the Z/X command page) until this update, so that made things worse for people without B-slot.

A fixed layout is more essential than you think past the first four/five beginning areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
The binary choice is different because you can't put one point into one skill, see if you like it, and invest on it or go back to the other one. If it were just the high SP cost per skill, you could do that, but the choice is the useless layer of complication that makes it worse than before.
Ah... I see your point now, though I highly doubt that was the intent of the old system nor do I believe many people do this.

Because the level cap wasn't always this high, the max SP wasn't always high enough to get every skill people desired by max level and then some. People who spread out their SP run the risk of not having enough SP for the skills they do need later, leaving them short either at their current level (forcing them to grind more levels to get the other skills they want), or short at max level (leaving them with a suboptimal build or being forced to pay for a SP reset). Many people want to avoid this, so they still have to look up guides and planners beforehand since resets aren't free.

In either system, people have to know what they're doing or suffer the consequences of a suboptimal build indefinitely, so I don't see the new system being any less newb-friendly.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 07-01-2013 at 05:33 AM.
 
07-01-2013   #39 (permalink)
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I find it strange that you understand how complicated it would be to have both old and new versions of hub worlds running together in a game but seem to believe having two different versions of a game mechanic would be simple.
The hub world is a big network thing, the skill tree is just a small part of the user database. So you don't have both versions "running" together, just coexisting independently.
The player's connection to this game mechanic (the skill database for their character) is through SP gain, and the skill tree window. The SP can easily have two versions, one for each tree, and you just see the one you can actually use on your active tree. The most complicated part might be the tree window if they didn't code the windows part properly, but it hardly seems like much of an issue.

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My interpretation was that the game was intended to be played with 8 skill slots from the beginning, and the 4 skill slot restriction was merely a business decision to nickel and dime players via the cash shop. People can "deal with it," but that managing to cope doesn't make it a better system.
Yeah, I never liked the restrictive 4 slot system. I probably got lucky that my character choice does fine with just 4, but it seems like 5 would be the minimum to make a satisfactory layout for everyone, even if you have to change it for certain dungeons. Two actives and three specials, or three specials and two actives.

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Because the level cap wasn't always this high, the max SP wasn't always high enough to get every skill people desired by max level and then some.
They really created the "too much SP, no choice needed" problem themselves by never adding new skills as they raised the cap. And now they "solved it forever" in a pretty lame way by making the same already existing skills gradually get stronger whenever they raise the cap, even though it's just a miniscule amount. They even changed old MP200s into MP300s so every class (including 3rd jobs) has a MP300 or MP250, which is why I don't think they intend to ever create more skills.
They did add skills I think twice, the locked skills and a couple 2nd job skills, but not nearly enough to spend all the new SP and keep you with the same amount of choice.

I wonder why they're so averse to creating skills... It doesn't seem so expensive as they created a bunch for the NPCs (some of which they're reusing now), and they don't flood the game with characters like Grand Chase (at least they didn't use to), and it seems like the most logical way to keep the progression going. Especially when 2nd jobs were downright incomplete (and still kinda are).

Quote:
Ah... I see your point now, though I highly doubt that was the intent of the old system nor do I believe many people do this.
In either system, people have to know what they're doing or suffer the consequences of a suboptimal build indefinitely, so I don't see the new system being any less newb-friendly.
I did that when I was starting out... In the end the SP abundance made it a more forgiving system, and now the low cost per level of a skill would allow for the same thing even if the maxing cost is higher, but the binary choice nullifies that.
I see the choice as worse for usability because it's completely unforgiving and really makes you have to go out of the game to look up what the skills are like. All that while being useless.
 
07-01-2013   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NoobJr
They really created the "too much SP, no choice needed" problem themselves by never adding new skills as they raised the cap. And now they "solved it forever" in a pretty lame way by making the same already existing skills gradually get stronger whenever they raise the cap, even though it's just a miniscule amount. They even changed old MP200s into MP300s so every class (including 3rd jobs) has a MP300 or MP250, which is why I don't think they intend to ever create more skills.
They did add skills I think twice, the locked skills and a couple 2nd job skills, but not nearly enough to spend all the new SP and keep you with the same amount of choice.

I wonder why they're so averse to creating skills... It doesn't seem so expensive as they created a bunch for the NPCs (some of which they're reusing now), and they don't flood the game with characters like Grand Chase (at least they didn't use to), and it seems like the most logical way to keep the progression going. Especially when 2nd jobs were downright incomplete (and still kinda are).
With the max being 8 skill slots, every class should still have more than enough skills to fill those slots. Wind Sneaker alone has at least three new actives with this update, though I agree that some classes like Void Princess aren't as fortunate.

There still is the problem of some skills being buggy (e.g. Airlenna -Sylph doing nothing at all) and some classes being nerfed to hell (Lord Knight's skills even at lv20 max do less than lv5 max from the old system), but damage values and skill properties are a separate issue that can be fixed later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobJr
I did that when I was starting out... In the end the SP abundance made it a more forgiving system, and now the low cost per level of a skill would allow for the same thing even if the maxing cost is higher, but the binary choice nullifies that.
I see the choice as worse for usability because it's completely unforgiving and really makes you have to go out of the game to look up what the skills are like. All that while being useless.
I didn't. I went straight for a planner immediately, and I doubt I'm in the minority.

Again, this would be easily solved if SP resets didn't cost real money, but it probably won't because it's common practice for "free to play" MMOs with cash shops.
 

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