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03-07-2008   #1 (permalink)
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Default Some thoughts on stage Eir setup

Just some stuff I've been talking over with friends, thinking about when I'm reading all the discussion in Hunting Grounds lately. Wanted to see which points are good, which ones I need to get flamed for. Some of it is harsh, yes, and it's certainly not meant for particularly casual players. Apologies for anything that doesn't make sense; it's 1 AM, but I didn't wanna wait any longer to put this out there for the community to read and flame.

Heal cancel
Seriously, Heal cancel is godly. Guaranteed to cancel Sunlight at more or less the exact perfect time, fastest way to cancel out of Holy Spirit and into a dash, and it... might let you go in any direction after Tears? Stage and PvP alike, an Eir who can't/won't use this has room to improve their game.

Prayer of Healing for fake res
People ask all the time why I recommend this to everyone. I'll just say this about it: Having Prayer as a fake res tool has, I believe, been more beneficial to my parties than having Resurrection. Overall, I see more bad situations getting fixed by Prayer than I see people who are actually important getting ressed. A lot of the time when people get a res, it's because they took too many risks experimenting with some new tricks (generally a case where it's a more or less guaranteed win either way) or it's someone who's lagging a lot or just plain sucks and doesn't contribute much to the run to begin with. Maybe it's just a playstyle issue--but to me, Prayer > Resurrection, and I don't see anyone suggesting no res for a stage build.

Emergency Heal: please, get it.
semi-rant here. Every so often, I still run into people claiming Sunlight is enough for fake res. Unless you're consistently playing with good players on their good days, it isn't. Get some real experience with your average parties at high levels before you make such claims.

Moonlight Piece VS Tears of Goddess
Moonlight Piece: the best of an Eir's anti-boss arsenal... or is it? With my new, remade Eir, I finally got to test out high level Piece against high level Tears in a pretty challenging situation... solo Adamans, all 3 alive. Yes, it was my fault the party got owned; yes, they were reasonably low on life. But what I noticed, especially there, is that the fact that you can't cancel Piece puts you in danger every time you cast it unless you're sniping from relative safety. You simply can't react to changing situations as fast as you can with Tears. It's really making me consider max Tears instead of max Piece for a mostly-support hybrid build; no one really counts on non-battle Eirs to dish out a lot of damage anyway as long as the rest of the party is alive. Plus, a good, solid hit from the new Tears scores significantly more damage than Piece against smaller bosses (Daru, anyone?) that Piece only hits 4 times, and the longer cooldown on Tears isn't as harmful when you're spending most of your time running frantically anyway.

Moonlight Chain sucks
After playing with it in PvP and stage throughout beta, I feel it's mostly just a for-fun thing in both cases. In stage, the best use I could find for it was pushing scarecrows into the trap spot for straw farming or turning it on yetis at Plateau so I could chat and deal damage at the same time. PvP, it seemed kinda nice for a while, but that little bit of use it has quickly evaporated once decent opponents saw it more than a couple times. The best thing about it is the animation, which is why I'd still love to see it made a bit more useful.

Moon Fog and Sacred Wave
They're both really good skills, honestly. Moon Fog might have a hefty mana cost and long cast time, but the range is excellent, more than enough to keep it safe, and the mana cost is barely noticeable once you're playing with decent equipment/Increase Mana. Sacred Wave doesn't have the same range, but it's fast and it gives you a quick 1000 damage in stage combos for just 1 point. I don't see why people keep trying to justify skipping either one.

Holy Shout: dash AS does not replace it.
Dash AS does not have the range, width, or easy cancelability that Shout does. End of story.

new skill changes, in general
New Dodge, Tears, Light Shield, Sunlight, and Emergency are hot. Had to say that. They really are.

Holy Spirit is still awesome
It was awesome, it is awesome, and I highly doubt it will ever cease to be awesome. Again, just like Heal cancel, you don't have to have this, but any Eir who doesn't have and use it has room to improve their game (or possibly they live exclusively in stages where nothing can be knocked down).

Blessed Bravery is annoying (Life Extension can be too)
It's a nice skill, it really is. I'm not saying to not get it at all. But it, along with every other long-duration buff, seems to interfere with things like Magic Defense and Hide when they're needed most. Lesson: don't spam this on everyone all the time; it's a bad habit. Find out which players know how to make good use of self buffs and let them work their magic.

and a couple last comments that have more to do with mana management than actual skill-specific issues...

stop obsessing over mana efficiency.
Yes, the damage or healing per mana is a factor that should be considered when looking at skills. But things go far beyond that. Your HP and Mana pools both empty and refill extremely fast; a period of 20 seconds can see both varying by well over 1000. More important is getting things done in the time you have. For example, Sunlight may heal about 1.5 HP/Mana/target compared to Light's 2.5, but that doesn't account for the fact that it's much easier to catch a larger group with a Sunlight and get back on the move. Just because a lower rank of Bead has better healing per mana doesn't mean it's going to get the job done as fast as you'd like for it to be done. Etc, etc, you get the point.

there is no such thing as having too much mana.
Just because you get away with having relatively low Price of Sacrifice/Mana Recovery/other mana-related skills does not mean you're a good healer--it means you're forcing yourself to slack off to maintain acceptable levels of mana, or you're putting your party in danger by going low on mana. There, it's been said. Eirs don't do a whole lot without mana; despite their easy pure melee infinites both at walls or in the open, you need either a lot of Str/Damage equipment to smash things or mana to spam skills if you want to be the best Eir you can be. tl;dr: Sacrifice and Recovery go up, or you're doomed to be a less-than-effective Eir.
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03-07-2008   #2 (permalink)
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This should go to guide section xD

Just my opinion:
I think Moonlght chain is still good in PVP and Stages. It's not a required skill but it's still a good skill for both PVP and PVE. It's a good damage dealer than you think xD
Maybe it's not that good skill for Stage, but I think it's really good skill for PVP. I would like to learn it when I have enough skill point.


Also, Mana Efficiency is still important. The reason why many Stage and PVP healers throw away Sunlight these days is because that it has low mana efficiency. Well, what you said is true. It's easier to heal with Sunlight than Light or Bead. However, it does not heal that much HP for your teammate as your teammate's HP goes higher T^T. And... when I do stages with 60s... Sunlight actually serves no more than fake-res. That's why I am deciding to throw away Sunlight for both Hybrid healer and Combat healer of mine T^T.


Bravery and Life Extention.
Blessed Bravery is used when teammates are in one place right...?
Healers does not spam it everytime when the buff goes out D: And in my memory, when Tia uses Hide, Blessed Bravery effect goes awa. And Hide is not that good skill for Stage. It's for PVP xD. Therefore there's rare time when it interferes with Hide and Magic Defense.
 
03-07-2008   #3 (permalink)
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you cant hide when under bravery, or any healer buff for that matter.

and i hide ALL the time in stages (most likely because i understand how the aggro system works, and the people i play with arent idiots, but thats not the point of this topic.)
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03-07-2008   #4 (permalink)
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ㄴO.O didn't know that. I didn't have any bless stuff and Hide&Magic Defense is not used in stages very well D:
 
03-07-2008   #5 (permalink)
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I don't use Hide that often in stages, but it's a good panic skill. And having a panic skill disabled can be pretty dangerous. Still, blessed bravery is really good stuff... (on the other hand, I'm finding that Tia doesn't get that much damage from her A key compared to her skills, ironically enough. Not many monsters left by the time you're done spamming thunder shock, fairy thorn, wind wedge, and heck, maybe even just one back stab can kill everything if aimed right.)

...anyways, back on topic, I find Sunlight to be good for topping the party off while the party is on the move. You can cancel it and get moving much faster than you can with light of healing (since you have to hold still for all three chants of light), which is important when dealing with a party that just doesn't want to wait to dash into the next room despite not being at full HP (which seems to be like, ALL THE TIME O_o)

Did they change anything about Light Shield? It's mentioned in Mis' first post as great but no changes were mentioned about it.
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03-07-2008   #6 (permalink)
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Light Shield's cast time has been lowered from .2 seconds to 0 seconds, just like Dodge.
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03-07-2008   #7 (permalink)
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Ah, I see. Hmm... recent thoughts are actually making me consider 4 points into light shield instead of 4 points into bravery now.

Did they increase Sunlight's range? According to that new skill builder at the Chinese site, it's range is the same as Prayer's, now.
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03-07-2008   #8 (permalink)
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I use Moonlight Chain in my combos to buy time for Holy Spirit's cooldown to come back up, enabling me to use two Spirit/heal cancels in one combo.

Also, should I get E Heal then instead of sunlight? I'm planning to get 6 LoH and 1 E Heal then, depending on how this question is answered.

I'm not very experienced at healing (I don't stage often) but I usually try not to attack when I have a full party and instead conserve my mp for healing with a quick pieces/spirit here and there. if I start comboing, somebody died .-.

What level should I keep price of sacrifice at? I'm thinking at least level 2
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03-07-2008   #9 (permalink)
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e heal is for emergencies. as its stated.. cd way too long to be good fake res if ur using it for that
PoS lvl 2? that's like.. nothing.. u can't even heal after using it
EDIT: i guess u can.. one heal..f rom ur lvl 6
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03-07-2008   #10 (permalink)
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Eir really needs Price of in the stage, because Eir's heals are the most mana-expensive skills in the game, so potions, MP increase, and mana recovery help her less than they do other classes. When Tia drinks a potion, that's at LEAST two skills worth of mana. However, for Eir, a mana potion doesn't even covers the cost of one cast of light of healing. Tia at max recovery only needs 20 seconds to recover enough mana to use most of her skills (around 220 mp cost, 11 mana per second recovery) but Eir needs more than TWICE that amount of time to recover enough mana for a light of healing (around 400+ mana cost, 10 mana per second recovery)

Soooo, yea. For serious staging, Eir needs Price of Sacrifice at a reasonably high level (generally 5, although I personally don't think even 5 will be enough once you get to level 64 and have maxed light, which costs crazy amounts of mana to cast)
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03-07-2008   #11 (permalink)
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eh, but I'm mostly pvp anyway. I just need enough soi can cast LoH again. since using price in pvp = dumb.
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03-07-2008   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itzJOHN
eh, but I'm mostly pvp anyway. I just need enough soi can cast LoH again. since using price in pvp = dumb.
That would be level 4 PoS (note however that that would be nearly EXACTLY level 4 PoS, so if you were already rather healthy at the time, then once you're done casting Light to heal your party members, you'll be right back to where you started)
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03-07-2008   #13 (permalink)
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Should always leave Sunlight at Level 1 IMO. Yes, it's nice having it at a higher level at around 40-55, but people's HP tend to go too high for it to be really effective in late game. Having it at Level 1 allows for another option for fake-ressing when situations turn bad.

No matter how good your party is, there will always be times when you may be pressed for fake-resses, and I've seen way too many times when a healer TRIES to fake-res with a max sunlight, but they are out of mana and cannot support it.

Between Level 1 Prayer, Sunlight, and EHeal, you should be set in fake resses with LoH as a desparate backup (due to it being maxed hopefully).

As for PoS for PVP, I'd still get some, maybe 2 or 3, but no more, since you can create situations where you can pull one off. But of course, that isn't the point of this topic, since this is a staging topic.
 
03-07-2008   #14 (permalink)
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Moved over to Eir tips and guides.
 
03-07-2008   #15 (permalink)
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what about level 4 LoH? i t heals 125 per wave, and I think would cost for only 2 PoS

my heal tree would be

level 4/6 LoH
level 1 sunlight

and I'd have either 2 or 4 PoS
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03-07-2008   #16 (permalink)
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dammit Gaiety, this is not a guide ._. That's what my guide threads are for.

@ Sran: Yes, people do spam Bravery constantly on the entire party. Multiple people. This is my warning to Eirs in general: think a bit before you buff.

@ Sran and John: what can Chain do in combos that AAAA can't?

@ Fiona: Yes, Sunlight's range is now 70, same as Prayer.

@ Sran and Raze: Light has too small of a range to heal people on the run efficiently; Bead immobilizes you for 1.5 seconds (nearly as long as Sacrifice) and it's not always practical to use it to heal someone on the run due to the beads' slow travel time. I believe using Sunlight as a main heal is the only real choice at any fight requiring high mobility. Yes, a good party can make Bead/Light more usable, but I don't think most stage Eirs should be planning to have a consistently good party.
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03-07-2008   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1s3ri
@ Sran and John: what can Chain do in combos that AAAA can't?
It's tourney legal =).
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03-07-2008   #18 (permalink)
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This may not be a guide, but they're still tips.

If you want me to move it back, I'll go ahead and do so, though.
 
03-07-2008   #19 (permalink)
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Hmm... well chain can be used to trap someone (even good players get hit, too) and you can switch to pieces for some quick heavy damage

You can FMB -> chain -> tears dash as etc, which makes comboing with FMB easier (FMB has to be hit high enough)
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03-07-2008   #20 (permalink)
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omg whats so new about Light shield tell me NAO!! xD
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