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01-13-2008   #21 (permalink)
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so.. zy takes my credit for recommendations eh.... anyways.. dragon should be maxed for stages too.. leaving it less is a waaste since it has a large radius. and dragon + hand to trick ppl is pretty.. useless.. since ur not supposed to spam dragon in the first place

http://www.mylunia.net/wiki/index.php/Wizard_Skills
for cast times
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01-13-2008   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lunar
so.. zy takes my credit for recommendations eh.... anyways.. dragon should be maxed for stages too.. leaving it less is a waaste since it has a large radius. and dragon + hand to trick ppl is pretty.. useless.. since ur not supposed to spam dragon in the first place

http://www.mylunia.net/wiki/index.php/Wizard_Skills
for cast times
Thanks, that website is really handy, now I don't have to go on Lunia and look up my level 1 wizard.

About that Cold Blue Dragon + Hand of Earth trick, I think I meant it as when you cast Cold Blue Dragon and missed your opponent, you can cast Hand of Earth really quick to cancel the delay. Thus, you will have a good chance to dodge your opponent's attack or attack them back. *I changed it in the guide*
 
01-13-2008   #23 (permalink)
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Hmm. The only real safe place to come at an opponent who missed CBD (REALLY rare) is from the side, perfectly perpendicular to the direction the wizard is facing when he missed. You really don't need to cancel the delay with Hand of Earth. If they come from any other direction, they might be caught in one or two hits of CBD. I make it a habit just to stick to range on missed CBDs nowadays.
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01-13-2008   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ZephyrX
Thanks, that website is really handy, now I don't have to go on Lunia and look up my level 1 wizard.

About that Cold Blue Dragon + Hand of Earth trick, I think I meant it as when you cast Cold Blue Dragon and missed your opponent, you can cast Hand of Earth really quick to cancel the delay. Thus, you will have a good chance to dodge your opponent's attack or attack them back. *I changed it in the guide*
and i'm saying u shouldn't be spamming CBD since its usually used after dash as... which in that case if missed is better to cast pillar for 2 hits of CBD

or.. in some cases only two hits of CBD will hit so hand can be used there... but that rarely happens for me

if u want a demonstration pvp me my style consists of absolutely no skill spam even fire orb isn't spammed.. every skill is used to an effective outcome
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01-13-2008   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by darkdestiny
Yes you would cause you're a stage player =P.
Because you see so many stage players using play dead and counter.

Anyways... Agree with what Lunar said ^
 
01-13-2008   #26 (permalink)
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? i spam playdead and counter in stages..
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01-13-2008   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceburner4540
Hmm. The only real safe place to come at an opponent who missed CBD (REALLY rare) is from the side, perfectly perpendicular to the direction the wizard is facing when he missed. You really don't need to cancel the delay with Hand of Earth. If they come from any other direction, they might be caught in one or two hits of CBD. I make it a habit just to stick to range on missed CBDs nowadays.
Hand of Earth will give you a nice amount of time to react to your opponent with the cost of a 15 second cooldown in Hand of Earth. A better reaction time at the cost of a 15 second cooldown spell isn't a high price to pay in PvP.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar
and i'm saying u shouldn't be spamming CBD since its usually used after dash as... which in that case if missed is better to cast pillar for 2 hits of CBD

or.. in some cases only two hits of CBD will hit so hand can be used there... but that rarely happens for me

if u want a demonstration pvp me my style consists of absolutely no skill spam even fire orb isn't spammed.. every skill is used to an effective outcome
Btw... this is a BEGINNER DAINN GUIDE. Some skill spamming is allowed if it serves a purpose. I do not encourage spell spamming just to blindly hope that it hits your opponent, I'm just trying to help out new players who make Wizards to have a better knowledge of the spells they have.

P.S. Lunar, I will gladly PvP you. Not for you to demonstrate, but for fun.
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01-13-2008   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrX
Hand of Earth will give you a nice amount of time to react to your opponent with the cost of a 15 second cooldown in Hand of Earth. A better reaction time at the cost of a 15 second cooldown spell isn't a high price to pay in PvP.
Yes, it sure does. As of right now though, if you miss CBD with your opponent in front of you, then yes, Hand of Earth serves as a good cancel. Chances are, they're smart enough to move back/to the side and hit you with something in return. Hand of Earth will miss in this situation, leaving you more vulnerable. It's very difficult for me to come up with a scenario in my head where CBD misses with the opponent nowhere near the front of you. Chances are, if you messed up this badly, Hand of Earth cancelling CBD's delay won't help you at all.
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01-13-2008   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrX
Hand of Earth will give you a nice amount of time to react to your opponent with the cost of a 15 second cooldown in Hand of Earth. A better reaction time at the cost of a 15 second cooldown spell isn't a high price to pay in PvP.



Btw... this is a BEGINNER DAINN GUIDE. Some skill spamming is allowed if it serves a purpose. I do not encourage spell spamming just to blindly hope that it hits your opponent, I'm just trying to help out new players who make Wizards to have a better knowledge of the spells they have.

P.S. Lunar, I will gladly PvP you. Not for you to demonstrate, but for fun.
17 sec cd and yes it is a high price especially hand.. it has many uses.
even for a beginner guide if they start out incorrectly they most likely wont change

however the BCD hand cancel is very important thing for a later on tactic. since i get screwed by not using it

also. for Ice pillar 1,5,8? it's either 1 or max 5,8 does absolutely nothing
1 hit from icepillar allows for aa dash as
2 hits from IP allows for aaaas dash as
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01-13-2008   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar
17 sec cd and yes it is a high price especially hand.. it has many uses.
even for a beginner guide if they start out incorrectly they most likely wont change

however the BCD hand cancel is very important thing for a later on tactic. since i get screwed by not using it

also. for Ice pillar 1,5,8? it's either 1 or max 5,8 does absolutely nothing
1 hit from icepillar allows for aa dash as
2 hits from IP allows for aaaas dash as
Damage from level 7 -> level 8 increases more than Damage from level 8 -> level 9. That's why I recommend 8 points on it instead of max. You should have other skills more useful than Ice Pillar to spend your skill points.

Cold Blue Dragon + Hand of Earth, although it is skill spamming. (by your defintion, if it doesn't hit your opponent, it's skill spamming) New players will find it they can move with better position after using Hand of Earth. Also in stages, Cold Blue Dragon(1 hit) + Hand of Earth + AA after it, does more damage than AA + Dash AS + Cold Blue Dragon to a boss. The habit isn't really hard to change, I started out with using Cold Blue Dragon + Hand of Earth and it wasn't that hard to change from always using Hand of Earth after it. Also, I listed Cold Blue Dragon + Fire Bomb as well, so other players won't get into the habit of always casting Hand of Earth after it. Having two choices, I found, doesn't really create a habit.
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01-13-2008   #31 (permalink)
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Even if the damage from 7 to 8 is higher than 8 to max, not maxing Ice Pillar and leaving it at 5 or 8 isn't really a good idea, since you'd be out to maximizing its damage (2 hits, both decay delete for full damage). At that point, a single SP for something that hits for twice full damage is much preferred over any other skill that could hit for minimal damage. MP to Damage ratio is, in fact, NOT so much an issue for Dainns as it is for Siegs and Eirs. The recommendation on Ice Pillar should be at 1 or max for both PvP and Stage.

Canceling Dragon with Hand is generally not a good idea because Hand's 17 second cooldown, although short, seems extremely long in Pvp. If you're going to cancel it against a boss, use Fire Bomb. Always.

Future stuff:

Fire Orb should be maxed. Absolutely no exception. Although it doesn't say it in the skill description, the range is much longer and very noticeable.

Ocean of Fire vs Fury of Land - Pick one and max it, leave the other at 1. Most stagers prefer Ocean, most Pvpers prefer Fury.

Fire Dragon's Heart - Leave at 1 for both Pvp and stage. A maximum of extra 3xx damage is not worth 7 SP.

Rain of Fire - This should be left at 1. Korean Dainns never use RoF in Pvp because you get almost no damage for the 2xx MP used. The only reason gLunia Dainns use it is to center the enemy for a 2 hit Ice Pillar. At a perfect skill metagame, the 2 hit Ice Pillar could occur without any recentering.

Summon Rock - If you're staging, get some because Dragon -> Rock is arguably the best mobber there is. If you're Pvping, skip it altogether.

Hand of Earth - 1 point. Always.

Land's Giant Fist - Stage: 1. Decent mobber. Pvp: 0 or 1. Sure, it decay deletes, but it's pretty hard/risky to combo off of.

Pillar of Abyss - Contrary to popular belief, the height that it puts an enemy from the ground is not <b>only</b> at 4 and 7, but rather a gradual rise between levels. 4 and 7 are merely the critical points for normal Fire Bomb and Ice Rain, respectively. A Wall DD Pillar only needs level 3 for a Fire Bomb to come after.

Meteor - If you don't get 1, you're an idiot.

Blesses - Skip 'em all. Only thing worth even considering is MP extension, and even then it's extremely situational.

Mana Recovery - Dependent on playstyle. Definitely try not to leave it at 0, though.

Mana Increase - Max, but somewhat dependent on playstyle.

Magical Critical - Most recommend 1, but again, dependent on playstyle.

Concentration - At the rate you're spamming spells, 1 might help.... if Dainns didn't have S charge. 0 for this.

Health Increase - Max. 250 HP goes a long way, especially with the 330 stat cap.
 
01-13-2008   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiety
Fire Dragon's Heart - Leave at 1 for both Pvp and stage. A maximum of extra 3xx damage is not worth 7 SP.
I would say Fire Dragon's Heart should be up for consideration at least. Even though the increase in damage isn't that much (around 60/hit maxed) the range and speed of each shot seems to be insane when maxed.
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01-14-2008   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceburner4540
I would say Fire Dragon's Heart should be up for consideration at least. Even though the increase in damage isn't that much (around 60/hit maxed) the range and speed of each shot seems to be insane when maxed.
Never knew that o.O, I'll put that up also


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiety
Even if the damage from 7 to 8 is higher than 8 to max, not maxing Ice Pillar and leaving it at 5 or 8 isn't really a good idea, since you'd be out to maximizing its damage (2 hits, both decay delete for full damage). At that point, a single SP for something that hits for twice full damage is much preferred over any other skill that could hit for minimal damage. MP to Damage ratio is, in fact, NOT so much an issue for Dainns as it is for Siegs and Eirs. The recommendation on Ice Pillar should be at 1 or max for both PvP and Stage.

Canceling Dragon with Hand is generally not a good idea because Hand's 17 second cooldown, although short, seems extremely long in Pvp. If you're going to cancel it against a boss, use Fire Bomb. Always.

Future stuff: (It was too long for quoting)
.
Though in PvP, since most people decide to go for Vit gear, they won't end up with as much mana unless they decide to max out increase Max MP. However, I think in PvP, Mana Recover is more useful as it doesn't require you to constantly using S to recharge mana for a Pillar of Abyss or a Fire Bomb.
On Ice Pillar, Maxing it out is like maxing out Price of Sacrfice. The gain by the last point is not so worthwhile. Besides, you only miss about 25 average damage * (2 hits if high enough), that isn't much. Plus, it increases the mana cost also. The increase from 4-5 is greater than the increase from 1-2 or 2-3 or 3-4, that's why I also recommend 5 points into it.
*These are only recommendations, no one has to follow what they say. It is up to your judgement to finally decide how many points to put into the skill

Last but not least, thanks for giving me info on various skills, I'll use it a lot for my guide, thanks!
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01-14-2008   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrX

Though in PvP, since most people decide to go for Vit gear, they won't end up with as much mana unless they decide to max out increase Max MP. However, I think in PvP, Mana Recover is more useful as it doesn't require you to constantly using S to recharge mana for a Pillar of Abyss or a Fire Bomb.
This part I have to correct regarding mana in PvP. While MP regen seems more like a logical choice, it's actually pretty stupid to do so without getting good gear that has high int and high vit or MP increase. Without high level MP increase, you're looking at an average MP of 1350 at approximately level 55. Now let's take a look at that a bit more.

The average mage starter is like this. You start out by nuking fury of land or fire orb first then the other. Order doesn't necessarily matter too much as one guarantees the hit of the other and that's why they're used in conjunction. Next since you're opponent is snared and/or flinched by fire orb you're likely to do Pillar -> Rain -> Ice Pillar -> if you miss your combo would most likely shortly resume due to your upper hand in position so you'd next follow up with Cold Dragon --> Fire Bomb -> Hand of Earth then you'd be out of skills for a while. These two basic, but powerful combos depend on the position you caught them at and most likely you'll use one then the other so the order I listed them doesn't matter. In any part of this combo where you will use bitter cold breath to regain your position or you will use it in a favorable position to resume attack because all other skills are on cool down. This chain of spells or combos takes

Fury Of Land Lv.7 182 mp
Fire Orb lv. 8 163 mp
Pillar lv. 7 135 mp
Icicle Rain lv.8 112 mp
Ice Pillar lv.1 74 mp
Cold Dragon lv.7 176 mp
Fire Bomb lv. 8 145 mp
Hand of Earth 23 mp
Bitter Cold Breath Lv 1. 207 Mp
Total = 1217 mp

Next up this chain of spells itself takes up about 25-35 seconds depending how slow you are but for arguments sake lets take assume you're slow. Take mana regen at level 8. 8 * 35 = 280. So 1350-1217 + 280 = 413. This leaves enough to pull off one fire orb and attempt to regen (I say attempt because I tell you it won't be easy to regen regardless of what you do if you fight an experienced person) or if you successfully caught them again you have enough mp to pull off pillar -> icicle rain then approach for melee for a short bit and you're left running around with nearly no mp what so ever. Note that during this whole time you've regained only about 450-500 mp. If you had MP increase from the go you'd probably still be able to knock down one life with the MP you had since you would have an additional 580 mp from increase rather than waiting for MP regen which wont' give you enough before you're killed. This is including the slower time which it takes for you to catch them again as part of the regen time. If you're a skilled PvPer, the time cuts down even more so you regain even less. Not to mention when you charge for MP the total you gain is cut down by the small amount of mp you might have without MP increase. That number is not something I can give because I do have MP increase.

Now you may try to note that this is only logical if you successfully pull off catching them twice or this only applies if your play style fits that way. Every wizard in some some of variation ends up doing the combos like that. Whether they start out with AOE or stick AOE in the middle after first hit. It doesn't really matter. THEY WILL use it. Now I'm not sure whether you're a PvPer or not or whether you're good either, but I'll note anyways. You may try to say that one player being caught twice so fast is unlikely, but I'll tell you regardless of how balanced two players are, there is a flow and as long as the opposition doesn't break your flow or rhythm you will have the upper hand that will allow you to catch them again for the most part.

Also, to note that this isn't just something I've thought up and not seen in action. I'll put out one good PvP wizard that has MP regen , Xpecial. He will tell you how stupid it was to take up MP regen instead of MP increase and tell you how often he gets killed by people because he ran out of MP and couldn't kill with the MP pool he has. He tries to run around to regen MP but to no avail.

Also, this is only in consideration if the skill level of two PvPers are relatively close. If they were relatively FAR apart mana pool isn't important at all because recharging will be MORE than easy.
 
01-14-2008   #35 (permalink)
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01-14-2008   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdestiny
This part I have to correct regarding mana in PvP. While MP regen seems more like a logical choice, it's actually pretty stupid to do so without getting good gear that has high int and high vit or MP increase. Without high level MP increase, you're looking at an average MP of 1350 at approximately level 55. Now let's take a look at that a bit more.

The average mage starter is like this. You start out by nuking fury of land or fire orb first then the other. Order doesn't necessarily matter too much as one guarantees the hit of the other and that's why they're used in conjunction. Next since you're opponent is snared and/or flinched by fire orb you're likely to do Pillar -> Rain -> Ice Pillar -> if you miss your combo would most likely shortly resume due to your upper hand in position so you'd next follow up with Cold Dragon --> Fire Bomb -> Hand of Earth then you'd be out of skills for a while. These two basic, but powerful combos depend on the position you caught them at and most likely you'll use one then the other so the order I listed them doesn't matter. In any part of this combo where you will use bitter cold breath to regain your position or you will use it in a favorable position to resume attack because all other skills are on cool down. This chain of spells or combos takes

Fury Of Land Lv.7 182 mp
Fire Orb lv. 8 163 mp
Pillar lv. 7 135 mp
Icicle Rain lv.8 112 mp
Ice Pillar lv.1 74 mp
Cold Dragon lv.7 176 mp
Fire Bomb lv. 8 145 mp
Hand of Earth 23 mp
Bitter Cold Breath Lv 1. 207 Mp
Total = 1217 mp

Next up this chain of spells itself takes up about 25-35 seconds depending how slow you are but for arguments sake lets take assume you're slow. Take mana regen at level 8. 8 * 35 = 280. So 1350-1217 + 280 = 413. This leaves enough to pull off one fire orb and attempt to regen (I say attempt because I tell you it won't be easy to regen regardless of what you do if you fight an experienced person) or if you successfully caught them again you have enough mp to pull off pillar -> icicle rain then approach for melee for a short bit and you're left running around with nearly no mp what so ever. Note that during this whole time you've regained only about 450-500 mp. If you had MP increase from the go you'd probably still be able to knock down one life with the MP you had since you would have an additional 580 mp from increase rather than waiting for MP regen which wont' give you enough before you're killed. This is including the slower time which it takes for you to catch them again as part of the regen time. If you're a skilled PvPer, the time cuts down even more so you regain even less. Not to mention when you charge for MP the total you gain is cut down by the small amount of mp you might have without MP increase. That number is not something I can give because I do have MP increase.

Now you may try to note that this is only logical if you successfully pull off catching them twice or this only applies if your play style fits that way. Every wizard in some some of variation ends up doing the combos like that. Whether they start out with AOE or stick AOE in the middle after first hit. It doesn't really matter. THEY WILL use it. Now I'm not sure whether you're a PvPer or not or whether you're good either, but I'll note anyways. You may try to say that one player being caught twice so fast is unlikely, but I'll tell you regardless of how balanced two players are, there is a flow and as long as the opposition doesn't break your flow or rhythm you will have the upper hand that will allow you to catch them again for the most part.

Also, to note that this isn't just something I've thought up and not seen in action. I'll put out one good PvP wizard that has MP regen , Xpecial. He will tell you how stupid it was to take up MP regen instead of MP increase and tell you how often he gets killed by people because he ran out of MP and couldn't kill with the MP pool he has. He tries to run around to regen MP but to no avail.

Also, this is only in consideration if the skill level of two PvPers are relatively close. If they were relatively FAR apart mana pool isn't important at all because recharging will be MORE than easy.
Though I find that mana recovery is better for new players who PvP because their fights usually lasts about 2+ minutes per life (correct me if I'm wrong) if they are equally skilled(or not skilled). Thus mana recovery will gain the upper hand because lv 4 mana recovery will get 4 * 2 * 60 = 480 mana while a lv 4 Max MP Increase will only get 340 mana. Also, the rate at which you use up mp for that long a fight will cause the person having mana recovery to have an advantage because the person with max MP will have to use S recovery.

However, your point about pro PvPing is true, since Pros can usually kill a life under a minute, so I would recommend Max MP increase over Mana Recovery.

Also, it depends on the gear you have, since I'm using int + dex gear, I find that mana recovery is more useful than Max MP increase because I don't have to wait forever to just get mana to use a Fire Bomb and I do have 1.5k mana at lv 46 (with level 3 Max MP increase)
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01-14-2008   #38 (permalink)
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u keep stating "guide for NEW players" more like.. ur telling NEW players how to stay a NEWB. guides are supposed to guide them into better players.. not keep them at their level.
mana recovery helps NEW players but if they dont have it at all. then they'd improve 10x faster than listening to your guide for NEW players
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Quote:
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u keep stating "guide for NEW players" more like.. ur telling NEW players how to stay a NEWB. guides are supposed to guide them into better players.. not keep them at their level.
mana recovery helps NEW players but if they dont have it at all. then they'd improve 10x faster than listening to your guide for NEW players
A character isn't horribly messed up on just one skill called Mana Recovery. Also, everyone has their own idea on what skill to get. A person's skill and human intelligence makes them a good player, not the skill points they choose to get.
And ALSO! I haven't even wrote the part on Abilities skills and you go around commenting on how horrible I recommend Mana Recovery over Max MP Increase in PvP.
AND ALSO! Someone who decides to max out on Int probably don't need to max out MP Increase, so they should get MP Recovery instead.
IN ADDITION! Lunia is 60% skill, 25% gear, and 15% skill points. the MP Recovery might affect them over the long run by the skill point section, but that can be redeemed by simply improving your skill.

Lunar: *mana recovery helps NEW players but if they dont have it at all. then they'd improve 10x faster than listening to your guide for NEW players*
Guess what, they won't really improve their skill by simply getting Max MP Increase. If they do, then why are there still noobs that have max level Max MP Increase

P.S. you should try reading...

Said Earlier to darkdestiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrX

However, your point about pro PvPing is true, since Pros can usually kill a life under a minute, so I would recommend Max MP increase over Mana Recovery.
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01-14-2008   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrX
lv 4 mana recovery will get 4 * 2 * 60 = 480 mana
It's always 1 mana per level per second for Dainn's mana recovery. He also gets .5 per second naturally, so in a minute with lvl 4, he'd get 270 mana.
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