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A More Different Approach..

Posted 11-03-2009 at 10:45 PM by Hykari
Well, instead of the usual expected blabble by me posting random things about feminism, I would like to see your opinion on what "greater good" it has done for society as a whole.

Questions:

1.) Do you believe feminism has done more harm than good? If so, then explain in detail how it has positively affected the female gender. Was this at the expense/cost of misplacing gender roles for males/females?

2.) All societies which follow feminism has declined in some form or fashion (morally, economically, structurally, etc.). Would you attribute this to some other factors that aren't related to the principles of feminism?

3.) Do you believe that the courts/businesses cater to women to somehow destabilize the family unit? Why does the male not need to be around to receive support from the government (for single moms)?

4.) Do you believe that the male gender has suffered some kind of "crippling" thanks to the constant barrage of threats about their masculine nature ("All sex is rape." "Men are pigs." Etc.)? If that's the case, why do feminists "embrace" masculine behavior?

5.) Do you believe that males (raised by single moms) have become more misogynistic/narcissistic/emo in response to feminism? Also, can the increase in homosexuality be attributed to feminism in any way (like emasculation)?

6.) Has feminism really made things more "equal" (pay/privileges-wise)? Or did it give females the upper-hand (favoritism in custody battles/divorce/maternal leave/hiring quotas for employers to fill/lighter sentences for the same crime/etc.)?

7.) Do you believe that birth control/abortion/child support points to an even "greater" agenda behind feminism? Please elaborate.

I'm really curious to see your responses to some of these. If you'd like, you can just answer your favorite questions or ones that you feel most comfortable answering.

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  1. Shiki's Avatar
    All I know from all for posts is that you're coming from a very extreme side.

    You need an extreme feminist to discuss with you. :/.

    To me, whatever floats their boat, as long as they're generally a well liked person by me, he/she can be a friend.
    permalink
    Posted 11-03-2009 at 11:49 PM by Shiki Shiki is offline
  2. Torikakae's Avatar
    Last I checked, feminism is supposed to aim for equality for both women AND men. If a "feminist" group is only, and I mean ONLY, concerned about women, then I don't really recognize that as feminism. I consider myself a feminist, meaning I treat guys and girls exactly the same in every possible way. As for your questions:

    1. I believe that it has done more good than harm. I'm not really sure where "gender roles" fit into the whole feminist idea as that would somewhat imply discrimination.

    2. I have not seen a proven correlation between feminism and a decline in society. I think that every society will eventually decline in some forms or another, but at the same time rise in one way or another.

    3. I have no idea what this means because I have no idea what are the laws and policies in your country.

    4. Masculinity has good and bad sides, just like femininity. I believe that they're the 2 extremes of a continuum. Embracing the other would lead to a more well-rounded person. So "crippling" isn't exactly the word I would use.

    5. ....No I don't believe that there's a strong correlation between the two.

    And no. If anything, it helped homosexuals be more open about who they are.

    6. It's getting there. But at the same time, it is one of the reasons why it's not getting there. One way to put it, women want to be treated equally to men while keeping the old world benefits of womenkind. That's not equality.

    With that being said, women gains advantage in some fields (ex. child custody) while men gains the advantage on others (ex. wages).

    7. I am not sure about that "greater agenda" part. But from where I stand, I see none.

    ***OT: About abortion. I am very much against that. Women claim it's their right....a right to avoid their responsibility.
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 01:26 AM by Torikakae Torikakae is offline
  3. Mitchi's Avatar
    Quote:
    Last I checked, feminism is supposed to aim for equality for both women AND men. If a "feminist" group is only, and I mean ONLY, concerned about women, then I don't really recognize that as feminism.
    QFT, Tori. There's a reason I call them "Raging FemiNazis"

    For the record, I'm actually a prime target of false Feminism (I'm a housewife, apparently the ULTIMATE insult to "feminism").

    1.) It depends really. Feminism, when it started, was created to allow women to be equal with men and get the same advantages and disadvantages, NOT to be placed a a pedestal (which yes, is how they used to be). I think what was lost in the process was that there always has been a lot of good reasons for the preset gender roles. It's not like it was decided by men of ancient times that Women are supposed to be the caretakers and whatnot...that's just the way females of nearly every species was designed. I DO however think it's done good for the women who used to be victims of domestic abuse, or part of a society where women are just considered inferior.

    To quote something I heard once (if you subscribe to the "God took a rib from Adam" thing) "Women were made from the rib. Not from the head, to rule over men, not from the feet to be trampled on, but from the side to be equal, under the arm to be protected and by the heart to be loved."

    2.) All societies are declining. Humans are just dumb in general. There's still a ton of societies that aren't fans of feminism, but they are far from perfect.

    3.) I think the help for single mothers thing arose from the need for it. You're overlooking the fact that it's not always the women that are the reason for single motherhood. There's plenty of men who are just douchebags. (Prime example: The FML about the man who left his wife because she had a C-section and couldn't have sex for a few weeks. WTF). There's also men that will date rape a woman or something without protection.
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 06:32 AM by Mitchi Mitchi is offline
  4. Mitchi's Avatar
    lol character limit

    4.) You're once again confusing Feminists with Feminazis. I say that Feminazis just need to get laid, then maybe they wouldn't be so damn uptight.

    5.) No and No. For the first one, Emos, misogynists and the like have always existed, just as women who have to raise kids by themselves have always existed. A positive male role model doesn't always have to exist in the form of a dad (should though) just as not all fathers are good parents/role models.

    6.) I think Feminism honestly just put things more out of whack then they used to be. I think it's on the way to making things better/equal, as women can now have more occupations than Nurse, teacher and Secretary.

    7.) No. Birth control is neccesary for some women to control out of balance hormones, etc. While I'm not a fan of abortion, I believe that there are some cases where it is needed (like the seven year old that was raped by her dad, and impregnated with twins that would have killed her if they developed, or many cases where a woman is randomly raped and impregnated). I don't think it should be done by stupid teenagers who are too stupid to know wtf contraceptives are.

    Also, I'm personally looking into birth control for myself for a different reason. I'm married (so you can't state that as a reason for abstinence, I know you're against premarital sex, but that's another can of worms), but I can't have children yet due to VERY bad scoliosis. Pregnancy could actually damage my back beyond repair if I don't get surgery before having a child. Some people would say that we should just not be intimate, but realistically, it could be a couple years before I could even have the surgery. Yeah, that sucks for me, but that doesn't mean it should suck for my husband too. Like I'm really going to give him a legitimate reason to seek the company of another chick.
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 06:32 AM by Mitchi Mitchi is offline
  5. Hykari's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Torikakae
    I'm not really sure where "gender roles" fit into the whole feminist idea as that would somewhat imply discrimination.
    Well, what I meant was mainly switching roles (like the woman being the primary breadwinner, man being the primary housekeeper/caregiver if there's kids involved, etc.). Like, does it leave males feeling like they're not much needed as they were before since females have equal/more rights and opportunities than them compared to earlier times (and does this affect them negatively from a psychological standpoint)? Also in this case, what about the kids who learn about their gender roles through "emulating" their parent's behavior (wouldn't it confuse them a bit)?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Torikakae
    ***OT: About abortion. I am very much against that. Women claim it's their right....a right to avoid their responsibility.
    Agreed. I believe this also encourages them into further "high-risk" behaviors (like substance abuse) and can possibly cause severe psychological harm (there was a woman who sued her abortion providers because she didn't think it would cause her emotional damage, I forget where though).
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 05:56 PM by Hykari Hykari is offline
  6. Hykari's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mitchi
    I DO however think it's done good for the women who used to be victims of domestic abuse, or part of a society where women are just considered inferior.
    I agree as well. I'm all for trying to prevent/limit violence against women (and everyone in general), and feminism did a great job in providing that "voice" for those who're probably too scared/embarrassed to come forward about it (the same with rape).

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mitchi
    3.) I think the help for single mothers thing arose from the need for it. You're overlooking the fact that it's not always the women that are the reason for single motherhood. There's plenty of men who are just douchebags. (Prime example: The FML about the man who left his wife because she had a C-section and couldn't have sex for a few weeks. WTF). There's also men that will date rape a woman or something without protection.
    True, but there's also some single moms who won't let their kids see their father. Some fathers who genuinely want to raise their kids and be in their lives, but the mom won't let them. What can be done to resolve this when the mom chooses to prevent/limit the dad from his supposed "parental rights?"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mitchi
    I don't think it should be done by stupid teenagers who are too stupid to know wtf contraceptives are.
    To a certain extent, the irresponsible ones are mostly ruining it for the ones who genuinely have good reasons/intentions (like those who actually have been raped or gotten pregnant from an incestuous relationship wanting an abortion are a minority compared to those who just want an abortion by not taking the necessary precautions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place), which is where it probably gets its "bad name" from. Those who abuse it contribute the problem, but it's hard to decipher who "those" are because the information is usually kept confidential (between the abortion provider and the abortion patient). So it's a tough call on that one.
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 05:58 PM by Hykari Hykari is offline
  7. Torikakae's Avatar
    Well if I take the core of feminism, then one of its goals is to eliminate gender roles. Roles should be shared and not a primary/exclusively kind of thing. As long as the roles get done (breadwinning, housework, child raising, etc...), why should it matter who does what?

    So in that sense, I believe that it does distort the traditional concept of gender roles. But it is a desirable effect IMO.
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 07:23 PM by Torikakae Torikakae is offline
  8. SOC's Avatar
    To Seirou's defense, I took a course over social problems on a global scale, and one of four types of theories we studied by was a from a feminism approach. Each time we studied it, it was from a rather extremist point of view... Like that women want to dominate and even exclude/eradicate all men altogether. That a woman-only world was the only way to fix the issues...

    My professor was a very polite, rational, and sensible woman, even. She wasn't a feminist of course, and neither was the text book based on it, but that's just how we learned about it in that class. Maybe it's where you're coming from that'll affect your view on feminism?

    Regardless, I believe in gender roles, because I believe in God. I believe males have their roles, and females have their roles. I believe we were each "wired" to do specific tasks. Men were created to provide and protect, women were created to serve and preserve. Of course there are exceptions, but believe me, both sexes are at their happiest when they're doing each of their natural "wired" roles. Any thing else (such as a woman wanting to be the head of the house) and a man wanting to be a stay at home dad while the mom works all day, I believe, is completely a sociological choice rather than what they naturally do.

    God makes every one beautiful, we make 'em ugly. <3
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 09:17 PM by SOC SOC is offline
  9. Mitchi's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Seirou
    What can be done to resolve this when the mom chooses to prevent/limit the dad from his supposed "parental rights?"
    Unfortunately, we have a very flawed justice system that will almost always favor the mother over the father, no matter how unfit the mother is, and there are some women who will abuse it in order to get child support without actually using that money for they child (I know of some women like this. They sicken me).

    I wish there was a way to actually be able to tell when a certain parent has the intent to honestly try to raise their kid in a good environment and not neglect them, but sadly, the most unfit of parents are generally also the most plastic.
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 10:04 PM by Mitchi Mitchi is offline
  10. Torikakae's Avatar
    But that argument doesn't apply to non-Christians/non-religious, Soc~

    It confuses me where to draw the line between "natural" and "traditional". I think that gender roles are more of the latter because it's just a preservation of the old ways. I can't really see it as "natural" that men protect and women serve. Female species of the animal kingdom are fiercer than males when it comes to protection of their young (as males tend to leave their partners), as well as capable of gathering their own needs. The lionesses do the hunting, the male penguins do the egg-sitting, and foxes choose only 1 mate for their entire life, and all of them are "natural"~
    permalink
    Posted 11-04-2009 at 10:05 PM by Torikakae Torikakae is offline
  11. Mitchi's Avatar
    Quote:
    Regardless, I believe in gender roles, because I believe in God.
    Sorry, but I agree with Tori on this one. You can argue that men are wired to do one thing and women are wired to do another, but you're completely neglecting the fact that some mend and women are just wired for specific things that are NOT the traditional gender roles. I think that sticking to traditional gender roles simply limits what a person can do as far as surviving, rearing young and whatever other parts of the natural order there are. Tori listed several examples from the animal kingdom.

    It's like saying men are better at logical sciences (like math) and women are better at linguistics and arts, despite the fact that I know many people that are the opposites.

    On another note, a good friend of my mom has a very lucrative job, even more so than her husband, and in fact it was enough for both of them to live very comfortably on her income alone. Her husband didn't make enough for that, and they would have needed additional income anyways. Is it wrong that she asked her husband to quit his job in order for him to make sure that their daughter (who is two) actually had a parent that was THERE for her instead of two working parents?
    permalink
    Posted 11-05-2009 at 12:11 AM by Mitchi Mitchi is offline
  12. SOC's Avatar
    We could spend all day arguing this and go no where simply because I believe in God and will argue based on that view point. XD Let's agree to disagree so that we don't get heated and end up flaming each other, or maybe causing some one else to get fired up. ^^
    permalink
    Posted 11-05-2009 at 09:15 AM by SOC SOC is offline
  13. Hykari's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Torikakae
    Roles should be shared and not a primary/exclusively kind of thing. As long as the roles get done (breadwinning, housework, child raising, etc...), why should it matter who does what?
    Yeah, I think that works out as long as there aren't any conflicts and both parties can find some sort of balance. I don't believe anyone should be "restricted" to certain roles (because they can change throughout the relationship) and should have a choice, but in order to avoid conflict, I believe they should be clearly stated before it evolves into more serious relationship. That way, there's no "surprises" along the way.

    The thing about today is, it's becoming more difficult for people to find where they "fit" in a relationship with possibly minimal/no conflict when those roles are sometimes shifted (in which females do most of the deciding as to who does what in the relationship, and males tend to feel "lost" as their nature says it's them that should lead and be the primary decision-maker). As within the past, it was almost a surefire thing that a woman you met was going to be the nurturer/preserver, while the man would be the provider/protector. So I guess that's where I was aiming with my earlier statement.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SOC
    Like that women want to dominate and even exclude/eradicate all men altogether. That a woman-only world was the only way to fix the issues...
    True. The thing is, they usually hide under the guise of modern feminism (so it's usually hard to distinguish them from the more sane/equality-minded feminists). I also read somewhere that they were trying to restrict/limit men from marrying abroad (I know, kinda silly), but it just shows they have no bounds when it comes to trying to completely control the opposite gender. Post Continued..
    permalink
    Posted 11-05-2009 at 01:08 PM by Hykari Hykari is offline
  14. Hykari's Avatar
    We could always use/need both sides of the spectrum to fix issues, but you would have to be really lucky using logic/facts against whatever arguments you encounter with them (because they usually result to calling you gay/eunuch/loser if your points don't match theirs, which mostly doesn't have anything to do with the main argument). If everyone would argue with a mentality such as they have, nothing in this world would ever get resolved effectively (you can't compromise, it's either they're right or you just suck). I mean, what can you do when you're pretty much arguing with "immature/ego-maniac" adults? I have yet to figure that one out..

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mitchi
    I wish there was a way to actually be able to tell when a certain parent has the intent to honestly try to raise their kid in a good environment and not neglect them, but sadly, the most unfit of parents are generally also the most plastic.
    I feel the exact same way, and I doubt there will ever be an accurate way in determining that. It's sad because the child is usually just a pawn in their game and gets put on the back burner because of it. It's like, the child's opinions/voice don't matter at all, and so the only thing he/she can do is just sit in the physical/mental crossfire, even when he/she is no where near at fault. It sucks, mainly because the effects become apparent in the child's development in his/her later years.

    All in all, I do agree with alot of what each of you said. It's always great to learn things from someone else's perspective besides your own (since no one's omnipotent).
    permalink
    Posted 11-05-2009 at 01:09 PM by Hykari Hykari is offline
    Updated 11-05-2009 at 01:12 PM by Hykari
 
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